Session Start: Sat Jul 19 15:42:18 2003 Session Ident: #ganymede [15:42] * Now talking in #ganymede [15:42] * Retrieving #ganymede info... [15:42] * IanIanSymes changes topic to 'Here boy' [16:20] * mumoss has joined #ganymede [16:20] :-o [16:20] Hooray! [16:20] I tought you weren't gonna make it. Welcome back to reality. [16:21] Well done. [16:22] Fuck off Play fuck. Also: fuck off TORDFC fuck. [16:22] I did, however, finish off reading the Smegazines this afternoon. [16:22] Danny John-Jules: "I don't think Duane Dibbley could ever get over-used." [16:22] Why fuck off Play/TORDFC? [16:22] And hooray/oh dear. [16:23] Also - I plugged your Inquisitor script stuff on ATVRD. [16:23] Play, for not delivering Brittas. TORDFC for not delivering BTL. [16:23] Excellent. [16:23] FUCK THEM BOTH [16:23] And Play haven't corrected their capsule yet. [16:24] listing, even. [16:25] We need to take an official G&T stance on the BB final. [16:25] Who are we supporting? [16:25] "Hmmmm." Excellent. [16:25] I say Cameron. [16:26] I don't care enough any more to have an opinion, sadly. [16:26] Anyone but Ray. [16:26] Bah. [16:26] WHY DID THEY EVICT JON? [16:26] Public cunts. [16:27] Jon was a bit irritating on BBLB, though, unfortunately. [16:27] I didn't see much of him on there. [16:29] I'm getting sick of arguing with people about Dwarf, though. For a start, I always say something that I regret later, because it's wrong. [16:30] Lister is a more interesting character than I painted him as on NOTBBC, but I was a bit half-hearted in the arguing. [16:30] I like arguing about RD with people who know what they're talking about. [16:30] Yes. [16:30] Most people DON'T. [16:30] I'm looking forward to this Cappsy thing. [16:32] I really must send in my Red Dwarf and Me answers. [16:32] I'll do that tonight. [16:32] Robin Harris, eh? [16:32] He didn't work on the I and II DVDs. [16:33] Robin Harris? Where? [16:33] An indication of the quality of the DVDs: one editor is no longer enough. [16:33] http://www.reddwarf.co.uk/deck01/dvd_cutting_it_fine_180703.html , of course [16:33] Ah. [16:33] There's so many extras on these DVDs. It's amazing. [16:33] And the Mel Bibby tribute; we couldn't ask for more. [16:34] Indeed. That's going to be the main thing in the Newsround. [16:34] Do you feel up to writing this "Series VIII setting" article, or shall we do it tomorrow? [16:34] I'd expected a little montage and a caption. This is immense. [16:35] I'm happy to do it now. [16:35] I bet the 'Lurve' song is Je T'aime. [16:35] Right. Best do it by e-mail, as it's easier to edit our thoughts, if you see what I mean. [16:35] Yes. [16:35] Hmm. [16:36] Reminices of Mel Bibby! This is fantastic. [16:36] I'd rather do it here. [16:36] It depends how long the argument should be. I thought it'd be paragraphs of argument, not sentences; at least at the start. [16:36] It'd get shorter towards the end. [16:36] Yes. That is the correct format. [16:37] I'll do it in a text editor, and paste it in, then. [16:37] However, it would be far easier to do that here. Simply take your time before posting. [16:37] We'd better make sure we FUCKING SAVE THE LOG. [16:38] Indeed. [16:38] It'd best wait to publish on Monday, with some other article corrections (and a new one by me, on What's Good about VII) - it'll get lost in the newsround, otherwise. [16:38] It's too good for that. [16:38] As there's lots on the OS this time round. [16:38] You're right. [16:39] I'll get some Brittas stuff done by Wednesday. [16:39] An update every other day = excellent. [16:39] Quality ones too. [16:39] There's lots of VII stuff on the two DVDs, so there is plenty of grabs I can get. Higlights include "middle of Tikka", "opening of Stoke", etc. [16:39] Fantastic. [16:40] Right, I'll update Monday, then. Do you want to edit together this article, or leave it to me? Either is fine by me. [16:41] I'll do that. [16:41] GOOD. [16:41] I can do it either tomorow or Monday, during the day when I'm offline. [16:41] I really need to get a new version of that Lost Eps article up, as well. [16:41] Great. [16:41] Well, you start. [16:41] Title of Wednesday's update: The Empire Strikes Back [16:41] ...:-p [16:42] Ho fucking ho. [16:43] Hello, and welcome to a first for G&T - a huge great argument. I'm Ian Symes. [16:43] And I'm John 'Ian, you're fucking cunting wrong' Hoare. [16:47] Well, quite. The bone of contention for this normally happy, loving couple is this: the setting of Series VIII. I think it was rubbish. I fail to see the logic in taking a group of characters from an original, exciting premise, and dumping them somewhere else - somewhere where their movements are restricted, and the possibilities for interesting situations limited. [16:50] Wheras I think that the setting for VIII was a great idea, and could (and to some extent did - according to a lot of fans) have revitalised the series, giving it new opportunities for stories, characterisation, and jokes. The main problem with it comes in it's execution. [16:54] This is simply not the case. The lack of potential for exciting stories is epitomised by the invention of the CANARIES (Contrived And Needlessly Asinine Reason for Inmates to Explore Space), in the very first episode after the setting had been established. The CANARIES were essentially a device which enabled the crew to poke about in derelicts and such like - exactly the premise for the previous two series. Had Series VIII's prison setting provided a sufficient range of possibilities, this wouldn't have been necessery. [16:56] [it cuts off at 'Had Series VIII's here - if tried to post more and it didn't arrive, you need to send it - if you're still busy writing that bit, ignore me] [16:57] Had Series VIII's prison setting provided a sufficient range of possibilities, this wouldn't have been necessery. [16:58] [I think we've found a flaw in using IRC. Even so, I can't be arsed loading up my mail client] [16:59] [Just post a few sentences at a time - if you need to continue, just add [more] at the end of the line] [16:59] [Good plan. That's the best plan yet.] [17:02] [give me 5 mins - ribbit's asking me questions, and this is a complicated argument this bit anyway] [17:02] [Kick her in the cunt.] [17:03] [We should include the full log as 'rushes'] [17:03] [Ho! Yes.] [17:07] Well, first let's examine the possibilities that have come up through the use of the new setting. 'Back in the Red' would have been a great episode had it been in it's original 1 hour version, and it could never have been done without the new setting, obviously. [17:07] And 'Only The Good...' is the same; the cliffhanger lets it down somewhat, and there are some weak parts in the second half of the episode, but the basic storyline is rather good, and a lot of it relies on the new setting. [17:07] As for the other episodes, the one that relies least on the new setting is perhaps 'Cassandra' - but so much of the good stuff in that episode, such as Knot, or Kill Crazy, simply would not have been there without the new setting of the series. [17:08] Just because the main thrust of that episode could have been done without the new setting, it doesn't neccesarily mean that it was wrong to introduce it, as it adds a new, and amusing, flavour to the series. [17:08] [That'll need slightly rewriting for the article, as the phrases I've used such as "new setting" are repeated too much.] [17:10] [Incidentally, don't forget to save the *entire* log, topic and all.] [17:11] I notice you haven't mentioned Pete Part One - an episode in which nothing at all happens. It's piss-poor, plot-wise, and that is entirely the fault of the new scenario. [cont...] [17:15] Okay, you could say the same about some of Series I, but there were always interesting concepts happening in the early days. Besides, the moderately sci-fi-free approach to the first series was deemed totally wrong, by everyone involved. Why then did they feel to ditch the idea-based process from Series III-VII, and make a series that had nothing at all to do with sci-fi? [17:15] Pete Part One is dodgy plot-wise, but that's not the fault of the new scenario - it's the fault of Doug Naylor and Paul Alexander for coming up with an awful idea for an episode, and not saving it through particuarly good writing. Nothing more to it than that. [cont] [17:16] The same applies to the rest of your argument. Yes, I absolutely agree with all of it. But none of it is to do with the new setting for the series. It's to do with the new style of writing and sense of direction of the series - [cont] [17:17] which, as I've said, I agree was not very good. Going back to Red Dwarf, resurrecting the crew, and being thrown in prison was a good idea, badly executed. Simple as that. [17:18] [:-p.] [17:19] The bad ideas in some episodes are down to the setting. If they'd have kept the concept of being alone in a hostile, godless universe, they'd be out meeting new individuals every week. The concept was never in any danger of running out of steam, whereas Series VIII did so within a few episodes.[cont...] [17:20] Again, you'll probably argue that this isn't the fault of the new setting, merely my fondness for the old one. So, piss off. [17:24] [Get out of this one, smeghead.] [17:24] No, I'll argue that it's because of the new direction of the humour and plotlines, which I think weren't right for the show. It doesn't mean the setting itself was piss-poor. [17:25] However, I do agree with you about one thing - the old setting was marvellous, and magical. Seeing the crew locked up, and not free to do what they want, in a lot of ways *isn't* going to be as much fun. [17:25] But I think that the interaction with new characters could have overcome this - indeed, Hollister is fantastic, and I'm really looking forward to him in the movie. It's just a pity that the potential wasn't realised. [17:25] [Backtracking, there.] [17:27] But, the characters were no longer strong enough to cope with the changes in environment. I think we agree that VII fucked up the expert characterisation of previous series, so a lot of the work had to be started from scratch in VIII. [cont...] [17:28] Indeed, there was a new Rimmer, with none of the character building that took place in the previous three million years.[cont...] [17:29] Therefore, although the poor characterisation wasn't the fault of the setting, somebody should have spotted that shifting the characters somewhere else wouldn't work, as they were no longer established in the audience's mind. [17:30] [Hooray! My slag girlfriend has left!] [17:30] [Now down to the important business.] [17:30] [Left where?] [17:30] [Left the INTERNET.] [17:31] [Good. I thought you were in the same room, for a moment. In which case, it would have been quite rude of you to be talking to me on IRC.] [17:31] [I'd be busy shagging, if that was the case, frankly.] [17:32] [That wouldn't take long, though.] [17:32] [Wah.] [17:32] [Anyway, carry on.] [17:34] I'm not quite sure I agree with this. Strong characters are strong characters, wherever they are - they should cope with the new setting easily. I think the characterisation problems in VIII again boil down simply to dodgy writing. [17:34] As for the Rimmer problem - I agree. And yet, part of me respects the way they brought him back - it's clever. (Although admittedly inconsistant, what with Kochanski, and old Lister, and all - presumably Holly sorted that out between the nanobots.) [17:34] I mean - what would the alternative be - Rimmer failing as being Ace, and returning to his useless self? That would have been awful. [17:37] Yes, it would have been. But we're straying from the topic somewhat. You mentioned earlier that you thought the new setting could have lead to a plethora of new jokes. This is true, but what sort of jokes? The jokes in previous series stemmed from the situations - they were clever, original and above all funny.[cont...] [17:40] Now, I don't want to start slagging off the jokes of VIII, as they are beside the point, but what sort of jokes could there have been from this setting? Generic ones, that's what. That's not what Red Dwarf's about. [17:41] [Oh, bollocks. That's quite good.] [17:43] * IanIanSymes does the touch-up shuffle [17:47] Indeed, the setting of VIII does encourage this kind of generic jokes. But it didn't *have* to - Cassandra is without doubt the best episode of VIII, and it manages plenty of the unique SF jokes that Red Dwarf excels at - *and* manages slightly generic, but *funny* jokes involving Kill Crazy and Hollister. [17:47] Let's face it, if all eps had been like Cassandra in VIII, we wouldn't be complaining, even if it isn't as good as peak period Dwarf. [17:47] I'm beginning to wonder whether there is a problem with the setting of VIII - and perhaps the problem is the prison part. Everything else works fine, but perhaps the prision part is slightly limiting. [17:47] Doug has gone on record as saying that he often thinks it would have been better to have had a series or two of Dwarf *before* they killed off the crew, as the setting of "the two lowest guys on the ship" has a lot of potential. [17:47] This potential could have been realised in VIII, without the prision stuff. [17:48] [Compromise, there.] [17:50] Although, no doubt the prison stuff helps the budget enormously - we don't feel we're missing anything by not seeing bits of Red Dwarf that are fully crewed. [17:53] I concur. The glimpses we see of pre-accident Dwarf are great (The End, Balance of Power, Stasis Leak), so a series based on those would have been good. It would have mixed the good bits about VIII, such as having decent recurring characters, with the ability of 'our' crew to not be restricted in their movements. [17:53] To sum up, having reached a fair compromise: the prison setting of Series VIII had its fair share of problems, but these were mainly to do with poor execution. However, a change to a scenario with more potential for interesting ideas would have been preferable. [17:55] Absolutely. I agree. However - there is one issue we haven't addressed, and that wouldn't be addressed with the slightly different scenario we have suggested. [cont] [17:55] In VIII (and, oddly VII - although nobody ever mentions this!) - Lister is not the last human being alive any more. Many people feel this wrecks the whole point of the series. [cont] [17:56] I don't - by this point in the programme, it really doesn't matter any more. There are more interesting, and pertinent things about the series. What do you think? By later series, the fact that Lister is the last human being alive adds a bit of flavour to the series, but not much more. [17:56] Not as much as the new situation on VIII *could* have added. [17:58] [You'll probably need to rearrange bits of this for the article.] [18:01] I agree with you. Lister being the last human alive ceased to matter as soon as the emphasis of the programme shifted more from character-based to action-based. From Series V onwards, it was a group of individuals fighting danger, it didn't matter that one of those people was the last known survivor of his race. [cont] [18:03] There are some who refuse to acknowledge anything being any good in VII and VIII, simply because there are other humans in it. I say to them: "was the fact that Lister was the last guy alive really the reason you liked other series?" The answer is invariably a sheepish 'no'. [18:04] [I haven't really left you anything to reply to there.] [18:04] [I'll insert that bit before the summary.] [18:05] Indeed. People like Red Dwarf because of the good characters, good situations - and good jokes. If a series delivers them, then it's a good series. [18:05] [Yes, I think that's all about it, isn't it?] [18:05] [Yes. Article ends.] [18:05] Hooray! [18:05] * IanIanSymes comes out of character [18:05] Thus we win. [18:05] YOU CUNT, MOSS. [18:06] JUST CUNT OFF [18:06] SHUT UP, YOU DEAD GIT [18:06] etc. [18:06] I really like my idea of putting this whole thing up as a text file too. Obviously, there are bits at the beginning that will have to be removed... [18:07] Not too much, though. [18:07] Have you got the log saved? [18:07] I have logs auto-saved. [18:07] EXCELLENT. [18:07] I'll copy/paste it all anyway, just to make sure. [18:08] I take it you're not one of Digi's special friends? [18:08] Feel free to mess about with it, and add things/take away things/rearrange things. [18:08] Not yet. I will be, though. [18:09] I'll add the line: "Everything I say can be ignored, as I smell of poo and wee', after your introduction. [18:09] I'm reading Digi, man. [18:10] * Disconnected Session Close: Sat Jul 19 18:10:26 2003