Ian's Newsround - 24/10/03
Hello! The big update on the official site this week is an interview with Ross McGinley, Senior Producer of BBC Worldwide's video and DVD output. This is a very exciting interview (not as excited as our one, which will be uploaded later...), thanks in part to the excellent screengrabs from the All Change documentary! All I can say is that Tony Hawks better duck... Ross reveals that among his favourite extras are the musical featurettes. Each to their own, I suppose. He also expands on the idea of branching deleted scenes back into the episodes. We plead with the powers that be to make this optional, with the broadcast versions of the episodes being present. It is a good idea, but as a purist, if it's a case of one or the other, I'd pick the original versions.
Also this week, details on BTL #45, which will include an interview with the folks at The Prop Store, DJ details and results from the recent poll. I'll do a full round-up of the mag as soon as I get my pissing copy. Finally, a bit of schedule news. The most important detail for British fans is that BBC TWO will recommence their Series III repeats with Polymorph on this Sunday at 11pm. Hurrah!
Comments
My arch-nemesis, there.
At least I can put a face to the name, now.
Bald, smug git.
Posted by Darrell Jones at October 24, 2003 04:37 PM
Nemesis? More like living legend!
Posted by Cappsy at October 24, 2003 05:24 PM
He's far too satisfied with himself - he is the nemesis of the comedy fan. The only good DVDs he's been involved with are those which have had someone more knowledgeable and genuinely interested in putting rare stuff out there.
I really hate him - he masterminded those absolutely absymal 'Best of Monty Python' videos, decided that the Blackadder DVDs shouldn't have extras on (even though assorted footage and rushes were offered to him specifically for use as DVD extras), allowed that shocking Young Ones series 2 release to go out, had the People Like Us series 1 extras REMOVED even after they had been produced etc etc et bloody cetera.
I wish someone would have the sense to sack him.
Posted by Darrell Jones at October 24, 2003 05:37 PM
If he puts 'Xtended' versions of the show out, I'd hate him too. I want the originals. Although, if the branching was optional, I'd be all for it.
Posted by Ian Symes at October 24, 2003 09:11 PM
I'm pretty sure the branching will be optional - erm, seeing as that's the whole point of branching.
Posted by John Hoare at October 24, 2003 09:14 PM
Besides - look at the Ellard interview. He was very keen to preserve the integrity of Marooned by only adding stuff at the end. I'm sure he feels the same about VII/VIII eps.
Posted by John Hoare at October 24, 2003 09:15 PM
Alright, smartarse.
Posted by Ian Symes at October 24, 2003 09:21 PM
I wouldn't actually mind an extended version of Holoship on disc 2 of series 5. And the extended 'Tikka To Ride' on the series 7 disc (but only if they could restore the laughter track). Particularly cut down episodes like that would really benefit from it. Ouroboros and Duct Soup can bugger off though - hardly anything was cut from them, they can stay as deleted scenes.
Branching can't actually be used to make longer/shorter version of things - it's actually impossible. These 'branching' claims perfectly demonstrate how little common sense McGinley has. You can branch alternate shots, but you have to use the same soundtrack. Seperate 'extended' versions would be the only way to offer different edits. In any case, branched footage makes some cheaper players freeze - it's not recommended at all.
Posted by Darrell Jones at October 24, 2003 09:53 PM
I actually think Red Dwarf VII works better without the laughter track. Actually makes part of it seem good at times. More dramatic, and the humour isn't "pointed out" (which is an annoying thing to happen if you hardly find anything with the laughter track glued-on to be laugh-out-loud funny). If they had made the laughter track settle more convincingly with the rest of it perhaps I wouldn't have found it as distracting. If they're going to put Xtended on the DVD I vote that they provide alternative audio tracks as well (like the MASH DVD which, I have to say, I similarly prefer without the laughter track).
Posted by Standalone Version (Does Not Require Extra Parts) at October 24, 2003 11:59 PM
By the way, Darrell, if DVD branching cannot offer extended versions of things, and the different versions have to use the same soundtrack, could you please explain how the Terminator 2 Region 1 release (containing 3 versions of the film) and the Beauty & the Beast Special Edition (containing 2 versions) work? (I know there must be other films that do this but these are the only two that spring to mind, and I'm not proud of automatically thinking of the latter, by the way.) Both have extra scenes added if you select the more special versions of the film, and the versions are not held in complete form on the disc, ie branching occurs. So please explain.
Also, I don't think DVD companies should be aiming to ensure all their discs function on the crappest equipment out there. If the discs don't play on Desmond Crewes' �20 Tesco machine then frankly he can fuck off and stop pretending he has anything more than VHS for home entertainment.
Posted by Standalone Version (Does Not Require Extra Parts) at October 25, 2003 12:09 AM
Well as we all know video footage is cut into chunks, along with its seperate audio track. I though branching was just a seperate command that tells the dvd to play those chpters in a different order or with some spliced in.
Posted by Cappsy at October 25, 2003 12:15 AM
For the Terminator example, it's all chopped up into bits, and the DVD player plays these lumps in sequence. Some DVD players will stutter on these changes (like all players do during a layer change), anyway.
It's more a cash issue - the cost for sending stuff to an authoring house to do encoding that complicated is absolutely ridiculous. Fine for Disney or whoever - they've got money *literally* coming out of their arses, probably - but no BBC budget can stretch that far (this is mainly pieced together from info on the Dr Who Technical Forum, by the way). It would really cock up the commentaries as well.
And all DVDs should play fine on all DVD players - it's not for anyone to say "well they should only make DVDs for people who've spent at least �170 on a Hotoshito DePlus� 9850 or better," really.
As for the series 7 laugh track, without it there are massive pauses inbetween each line of dialogue and it feels very embarassing to listen to. Very odd, that laugh track - a combination of real and canned, one on top of the other. Sounds pretty canned, but the series is better with it, I think. Had the real audience reaction they recorded been a bit more spirited in the first place, there'd be no problem, but I think the wrong demographic (eurgh, hate that word) turned up to the laugh-track session(s).
Posted by Darrell Jones at October 25, 2003 12:37 AM
Canned never has, or ever will be, used in Red Dwarf.
Posted by Cappsy at October 25, 2003 01:03 AM
It was used to enhance the series 7 laugh track after the results from the screening were rubbish.
Posted by Darrell Jones at October 25, 2003 01:13 AM
I would say the awkwardness of silences in the non-laughter series VII come more from the lack of humour than the lack of the laughter-track. Personally I think the mood is far enhanced without the laughter-track, and gives a more accurate impression of what the performers were responding to in the space. By the same token, I think the addition of a laughter-track for the movie would be irritating. If you suggest that the movie will require one to fill in the awkward silences I may have to shoot you.
I had a friend once who insisted that all computer programs and games should be made to run on his 386 Amstrad, and resented the idea of CDs replacing floppy disks from the start. I think if people insist on sticking with their �15.99 ASDA/Walmart DVD Player (2 for the price of 1!!) varients, they shouldn't complain when some discs have problems. Prices of players aren't just an indication of how complicated the Japanese brand names and codes are.
If there is an argument at all in this, then manufacturers of DVDs can put out versions of their releases with only 16 colours if they must. As long as I don't end up getting stuck with that version.
Posted by Standalone Version (Does Not Require Extra Parts) at October 25, 2003 01:41 AM
Ah, just re-read that and found my tone rather bitchy for some reason. 'Tis past my bedtime, I apologise.
Posted by Standalone Version (Does Not Require Extra Parts) at October 25, 2003 01:43 AM
The film will not have a laugh track.
Series 7 was deliberately paced by the actors to allow pauses for the laugh track to be added later, that's the difference here - we're talking about a unique case. If they hadn't acted it like that in the first place (and why they did anyway was a mystery, it's not standard practice to do that) it would have been fine sans its laughter track. As it stands though, while watching series 7 without the laugh track you're constantly expecting a bale of hay to roll across the screen during all the massive pauses.
Of course, the whole thing would have been easier had they just done it in front of a live audience anyway, but that's for the article...
Posted by Darrell Jones at October 25, 2003 02:29 AM
I'm not really too fussed about having extended (or even X-tended) versions of VII/VIII on the DVDs, or whatever form of branching might or might not be used (I'm really technically illiterate on the subject, despite my high and mighty post above).
However, I've always said that a 40min version of Holoship would be fantastic as an extra (however it's done) - and a 1 hour as-originally-shot Back In The Red would be fab too.
I'd also have liked to have seen a version of The End without all the reshoot material - using just stuff shot in the original sessions. But most of the original stuff turned up in the deleted scenes, so it doesn't really matter. Actually, I think only I would have been interested in something like that.
Posted by John Hoare at October 25, 2003 06:22 AM
> I'm not really too fussed about having extended (or even X-tended) versions of VII/VIII on the DVDs, or whatever form of branching might or might not be used (I'm really technically illiterate on the subject, despite my high and mighty post above)
Can I just clarify something here? Are you saying that you wouldn't mind Xtended versions *as well* as originals, or that you wouldn't be bothered if Xtended versions were used *instead* of the originals? If it's the latter, I may have to quit G&T.
Posted by Ian Symes at October 25, 2003 11:55 AM
NO, having read the orignal pilot I would have loved to see that, John!
I get the impression that Series V, as a whole, was heavily cut down. I seem to remember Symes doing an article on the full script of the Inquisitor.
It all boils down to this really. With the behind- the- scense tucker video and endless deleted stuff the Series V DVD is going to be something I would quite happily sell my own head for. It WILL be the pick of the bunch, without doubt.
Posted by Cappsy at October 25, 2003 11:55 AM
No - I definitely want the broadcast versions on there. I mean that I don't care if the Xtended versions are on there or not (if they are, it'll obviously be branching stuff). Certainly, if they were used instead, I wouldn't like that at all.
But the discussion is moot, because the originals will definitely be used anyway.
Posted by John Hoare at October 25, 2003 01:13 PM
"[Ross McGinley] decided that the Blackadder DVDs shouldn't have extras on (even though assorted footage and rushes were offered to him specifically for use as DVD extras)"
No, he didn't. That was someone else.
That Ross McGinley interview is a prime example of people not giving a toss about what they produce. The Red Dwarf and League Of Gentlemen discs he produces are only good because the people involved in the shows themselves have said "Hey, Ross, we fancy doing a commentary for this disc, and by the way, here's a tapeful of deleted scenes". Hense the abysmal Bottom DVDs he's done which, with some effort put in, could have had loads of excellent extras. His implication that, for example, Dad's Army has no extras that can be included is balls: even the casual fan is aware of the Victoria Wood-hosted documentary, the silent on-location 8mm footage that appears in such documentaries, the two recently-found lost episodes, the American pilot ("Don't tell him, Henderson!"), and the radio spin-off. Plus, Croft and Lloyd are always keen to talk about the show, turning up at the NFT and on various documentaries, so why not commission a new commentary? The reason: there's no Dad's Army restoration team, or no John Howard Davies breathing down his neck for a decent chronological release as there are for Dwarf, Who and League. Same for all such comedy releases, including the aforementioned Bottom. That "the episodes stand up for themselves" line seems a bit of a cop-out. Try using that to the fans when they release an extraless Dr Who disc and see what sort of reaction you get.
Agree about the pilot, how it should have been included in full on the DVD. Clips are nice but it would have been excellent to see it in full, to understand what BBC executives were seeing when they said "We like this. Right, five more episodes please". I think what must have happened is that the disc's compiler(s) must have thought "Uh-oh. A comedy DVD and it's all serious stuff like documentaries and trailers. How can we make it more funny and less factual? I know! An episode dubbed into Japanese with no subtitles, just like on the Criterion Holy Grail laserdisc! Yeah, that'll do, etc.". Did anyone else watch that Japanese show and think that it was half-an-hour of disc-space that could have contained the pilot? With the 'Launching' documentary and the deleted scenes, the pilot is the only thing missing to made RD S1 a truly excellent DVD set. It's a shame that comedy is dismissed with silly extras like this. I don't mind so much when the silly extras are accompanying the real stuff (The Holy Grail disc has a terrible new sketch on it but it also has twenty minutes of on-set footage and a fifty minute tour of locations with Palin and Jones so nobody's complaining) it's when it is in place of something that could be on there that's so infuriating. (In fairness, the pilot may have been omitted for legal reasons, certain parties refusing permission, etc. In lack of fairness, it was probably wasn't, and was instead omitted for utterly twatty reasons.)
Finished reading that Andrew Ellard interview. Why do all these DVD compilers have to see themselves as creatives? As far as I can see Ellard's job is to digitise footage and make sure that the disc comes in under-budget. He's an electrician basically, so what gives him the right to write new links for Hattie Hayridge in a poorly-conceived "I Love Ace Rimmer" featurette? No wonder Doug Naylor demanded most of his material cut.
That thing about how much of the unused 'Smeg Outs' aren't interesting was, uh, interesting. Here's an idea for Andrew: instead of him telling us what we will and will not find amusing why not on one of the later discs include an entire studio tape for one of the episodes? It will be a fascinating insight into how the show is made, and wont take up too much disc-space as it can only be fifty or so minutes long. It won't be as funny as Danny John-Jules falling off a stool, possibly, but it'll certainly make amazing viewing for the major fan, while the casual buyer wont complain because they'll just watch the episodes on the DVD set they were going to buy anyway (and there's proof that this system works in the reel of rushes on 'The Talons Of Weng-Chiang' DVD). And if it's a question of disc-space I'd gladly sacrifice the "Duane Dibley: Me And My Thermos" mock-documentary for an hour of Chris Barrie being reminded of his line by a bald man with a clipboard on the set of "Demons And Angels". Anyway, just a thought.
Posted by Squidy at October 25, 2003 04:34 PM
Just to clarify - Red Dwarf never had a pilot. All six episodes of the first series were shot in one set. What I mean is that reshoots of 'The End' took place later on in the run in order to fix various things - most of these different versions are in the deleted scenes. It would have been nice to have seen the episode put together as originally shot, without the reshoots.
Just an idea, though - I'm not cut up about the fact it isn't on there, and I suspect a minority would be interested, seeing as all the good stuff is in the deleted scenes.
Posted by John Hoare at October 25, 2003 07:08 PM
I would LOVE to see many of the entire studio tapes for the episodes of "Red Dwarf". In the DVDs for "Red Dwarf V", "Red Dwarf VI", "Red Dwarf VII" and "Red Dwarf VIII", I REALLY wish that there could be a third disc which contains as many entire studio tapes for the episodes in "Red Dwarf" as can be fit on the disc.
Posted by Jessica Malcolm at October 26, 2003 11:23 AM
"Red Dwarf", there. You can perhaps fit two complete rushes on a DVD. I don't think it's feasible, really. There are quite a few people that would be willing to fork out extra money for a rushes disc, but most people wouldn't be interested in it at all.
Posted by Ian Symes at October 26, 2003 01:41 PM
I think there's an essential dichotomy here. Some people don't care about stuff such as the Ace featurette (which I'm reserving judgement on until I've seen, which is only sensible) or the musical featurettes - and only want to see stuff about the *production* of the programme. Other people couldn't care less about that kind of stuff, and just want to see some fun little features. (Stuff like the Deleted Scenes fall into both categories, I think - which is one of the reasons they're so popular.) Both points of view are equally as valid; I personally fall into the former category more than the latter. The DVDs are quite rightly trying to please everyone - and you'll *never* do that 100%.
The rushes question is an interesting one - I'd *love* to see some, and think it'd be nice to have some - but a lot of people just wouldn't be interested. Quite a lot would, of course, in which case it would be nice to have something like the Hitchhikers DVD (and who knows what the Easter Eggs are for the III and IV DVDs - we might possibly be treated to some) - but talk of complete sessions is unrealistic, really.
There's also rights issues, of course (or simply being polite). Personally, I'd love to see the rushes to the scene where they first meet the ginghamed Rimmer in Quarantine - apparently, it took 57 minutes to shoot the scene according to Rob and Doug (Smegazine Interview/RD Programme Guide). But it's always possible that the cast simply wouldn't want that on the DVD. Isolated mistakes - fine. Them fucking up OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN with a real-life context is slightly different.
Finally, we do have to remember that the DVDs are just absolutely fantastic. It's fine to say what it would have been nice to have seen on there, but never forget that point. Nearly all the great stuff is on there. And don't forget - without Andrew Ellard, we wouldn't have got the deleted scenes...
Posted by John Hoare at October 26, 2003 02:31 PM
Nobody blocked extras for the Blackadder discs as far as I'm aware, although Steve Roberts (who edited Bottom Fluff) declined to do a similar video for Blackadder because the clips weren't 'funny' enough. He still dubbed off copies of the rushes tapes for his own collection though.
Posted by M at October 26, 2003 05:22 PM
Apparantly, there's a similar bootleg of unseen RD out-takes about. These are ones that either couldn't be cleared or were too rude for the videos. If anyone's got a copy...
Posted by Ian Symes at October 26, 2003 05:49 PM
It's not really a dichotomy. I mean, it's an uphill struggle being a comedy enthusiast in the first place - we're should all be proud to be the geeks we are and aim for the stars.
I mean, I don't believe Joe Punter would pick up a Red Dwarf DVD and exclaim 'An unedited studio recording - what the hell's that?!' and refuse to buy it on that basis. Nor do I think he'd be attracted by a 'Get the Curry Into Mr Lister's Characterlessly Flash-Animated Mouth' game, or 'Drunk Featurette: The Revenge'. He'd just buy it for the regular episodes. So extras might as well be as geeky as fuck. Commentaries, for example, are *only* listened to by geeks, so they might as well have Bob Spiers-style technical info rather than 'accessible' anecdotes about people's hair being slightly different.
It's true that there are often unavoidable reasons why DVDs have certain shortcomings. But rather than say 'Ho well, that's the way it is, we're a minority I guess, mustn't grumble', I'm more inclined to question whether said reasons are (a) flawed and (b) actually easily rectifiable. As Squidy says, the main reason why certain DVDs are good is because they have interested parties on board, people who know what's what and can suss out producer-bullshit. 'Yes, the storyboards *do* exist - I have them here in my suitcase...'
Posted by M at October 27, 2003 12:34 AM
But rushes would require extra discs, which would mean the DVDs would be more expensive. This could put non-geeks off.
Posted by Ian Symes at October 27, 2003 12:37 AM
Well, *selected* rushes wouldn't have meant a seperate disc, at least on Series I and II. I think there is an argument for putting some on (of course, with the Polariod footage, there *technically* is some) - but, as I say, there may be people involved in the production who simply would not want them on there, for any number of reasons. Remember - they were never really meant to be seen. But perhaps selected, non-controversial ones would have been nice. It's a different matter for the III/IV discs, though - they look practically full to bursting.
I do think M makes some interesting points - but I maintain that it's not just production geeks who tend to want some nice extras. Quite a lot of people must have liked the Drunk featurette, as there are more of them coming - the team certainly took notice of some of the feedback given to them. And hell, there's nothing wrong with commentary tracks with the cast simply being silly on them - and quite a lot of people would prefer that kind of thing to a technical one. The answer would have been to have had both, of course - but the coming documentaries go quite a long way to rectifying this.
And I just react against the whole tone of a lot of these arguments (nobody in particular, here, and not in the last few posts, either - this isn't really aimed at you, M) - people often seem to think it's their *right* to extras laden discs, and appear to be quite rude in the way they put things ("WHY DIDN'T YOU PUT THAT ON THERE? YOU *IDIOT*!") Where there simply is no right to them - it's lovely when we get them, but there is nowhere in the BBC charter that states we deserve them.
Besides, the people involved in making the RD DVDs put an incredible amount of care into making them, and simply don't deserve that tone. Queries, suggestions, polite points, yes. Rants, or snidey remarks - no.
Posted by John Hoare at October 27, 2003 12:50 AM
I've never argued we have a 'right' to fantastic extras. I just get annoyed (and I'm not necessarily talking about Red Dwarf here) when certain things are vetoed for no real reason. Or for reasons that are a bit hazy and/or dubious. 'The public won't understand this', for example, or general squeamishness about being too geeky. (Drunk Featurette is almost an apology for previous geekiness - as a feature, it's like a parody of the kind of extra a diehard comedy enthusiast would despise. The antithesis of trainspotterdom.)
Anyway, my main point would be that fans need to keep pushing for bigger and better extras. Aim for everything and you get something half-decent; aim for half-decent and you get nothing.
No need to be rude, obviously. But, as Squidy illustrates, sometimes producers are patronising little shits and deserve their attitudes questioned. A lot of them *will* fob you off with standard excuses, especially when they don't quite realise how much you know about a series (or indeed the practicalities of producing a DVD). I too dislike the way they often see themselves as creatives rather than curators.
Posted by M at October 27, 2003 02:07 AM
> I've never argued we have a 'right' to fantastic extras.
I know - that's why I specifically excluded you from my statement.
> I just get annoyed (and I'm not necessarily talking about Red Dwarf here) when certain things are vetoed for no real reason. Or for reasons that are a bit hazy and/or dubious. 'The public won't understand this', for example, or general squeamishness about being too geeky.
Oh, yes - I agree with you. Speaking purely about Red Dwarf (which I know you said you're not really talking about), I don't think any struggling against any of this is neccesary. I believe, as you say, you're right with other DVDs.
> (Drunk Featurette is almost an apology for previous geekiness - as a feature, it's like a parody of the kind of extra a diehard comedy enthusiast would despise. The antithesis of trainspotterdom.)
Possibly. And yet, some people find it fun. (I've deliberately just searched on the net for people who liked it.) So where's the problem in having it on there? You don't have to watch it more than once (I certainly haven't.) They're trying to make DVDs to please *everyone*, not just production geeks like us.
> Anyway, my main point would be that fans need to keep pushing for bigger and better extras. Aim for everything and you get something half-decent; aim for half-decent and you get nothing.
Absolutely. I agree. It's not as needed for RD as for most comedy releases, although obviously that doesn't mean people shouldn't make suggestions (I make enough of them myself!) - and people really should campaign for better releases of other comedy shows.
> No need to be rude, obviously. But, as Squidy illustrates, sometimes producers are patronising little shits and deserve their attitudes questioned. A lot of them *will* fob you off with standard excuses, especially when they don't quite realise how much you know about a series (or indeed the practicalities of producing a DVD).
Fair enough. It's good that this doesn't happen with Red Dwarf - I may disagree with Andrew Ellard's reasons for cutting the model shot footage, but I can see his reasoning.
> I too dislike the way they often see themselves as creatives rather than curators.
I don't see the problem with the odd thing like this - when you look at the list of extras for RD, only one or two per release can really be called an original creative piece. Most of it is the deleted scenes, documentaries, etc etc etc.
Besides, Doug Naylor is also involved in the DVD releases, and he is the original creative force...
As for other DVDs, I haven't seen enough of them to comment on this area.
Posted by John Hoare at October 27, 2003 02:21 AM
Hmm. Looking at that little lot, it appears we agree on most things - we've just been looking at it from slightly different angles...
Posted by John Hoare at October 27, 2003 02:26 AM
Having dropped in to G&T to see how bad I sound in the interview (only one typo - yay me!), I thought I'd take the chance to respond to one or two things before I fly off.
John, don't worry - the eps are in the right order on the DVD. That was an old prodction image of the episode menu, not final art.
The musical featurettes seem to have divided people - but that's okay, given that some have complained about the model footage being filler, while others adore it - but I still like 'em. One of the interesting things abotu Dwarf is the way it keeps going back to certain 'themes' - this was a way to look at how we do that in a funny way. The 'Lurve' one is my favourite so far...but to each his own.
There was no pilot edited. It was shot, but re-shot constantly over the subsequent weeks and only compiled as they went along. Very little of the replaced footage was not included on the DVD.
Broadcast versions ARE the priority for all releases. Series III has the TV originals, not the video edits (only slightly different, but still), and we hope to see that continued.
Finally, I'm afraid I have to see myself as 'creative' - because it's what they employ me for. I'm a professional writer and sometime designer. Okay, I've not written groundbreaking TV, but TV it was, and every week I've been churing out articles and comedy material for the RD website. (What are the Toaster pieces, if not little sketches?)
If nothing else, for God's sake don't tell my agent I'm actually an electrician with pretentions! :-)
Won't be posting again - you can come the rd.co.uk forums for that - but thank you all for all your interest in the DVDs.
Posted by Andrew GNA at October 27, 2003 09:42 AM
Thanks for all that Andrew - and may I just thank you again for all the work you put into the DVDs. It really is appreciated. You have no idea how grateful I am that you campaigned for the deleted scenes...
Posted by John Hoare at October 27, 2003 09:54 AM
As you say, I think we both want the same things but are coming at it from different angles. You seem to be saying 'Interest in geeky matters is such a minority interest that we should keep reminding ourselves how extraordinary the discs are', whereas I'm saying 'It's such a minority interest that we have to keep fighting the good fight, otherwise in the future it'll be Drunk Featurettes and nothing else'.
I also see it as a reclaiming exercise. Comedy is too often in the hands of (and therfore tailored for) people who like a bidduvalarf and nothing else - the lightweights, who always bring everyone else down with them. So it's always nice to see a series you love being treated seriously.
What do I particularly hate about Drunk Featurette? Oh, just the whiff of office humour about it. The subtext of 'Here's something the backroom boys put together - sorry, we couldn't resist!!!'. I dislike moving menus for the same reason - I wish they'd save the money and spend it on better things. (And again, do casual consumers really eschew discs because they don't have elaborate menus? Surely they don't know until after they've bought it?)
Posted by M at October 27, 2003 07:31 PM
Ellard: "Broadcast versions ARE the priority for all releases. Series III has the TV originals, not the video edits (only slightly different, but still), and we hope to see that continued."
Yay! The word "week's" in all its glory! I suppose the broadcast version of Terrorform might prove problematic, as this was changed for PRS reasons. Not a major thing, mind.
Posted by Ian Symes at October 28, 2003 08:54 PM
*Original* broadcast version, you mean. It was changed for all subsequent repeats too, which is interesting...
Posted by John Hoare at October 28, 2003 08:56 PM
I take your points, but aren't they a bit redundant when applied to Red Dwarf? RD is lucky enough to have a committed production company that care about producing good releases, and they've done very well so far. They also, due to the show's success, have to produce something for everyone, which they've also managed to do, judging from the feedback about the featurettes. It's probable that there's at least one extra on each DVD everyone doesn't like, but then they don't have to watch it; they can enjoy the stuff they do like instead.
I'm not really sure comedy is 'often' aimed at the 'bidduvalaugh' crowd (which is a dodgy stereotype anyway). I think you're misinterpreting the need to cater for different audiences, which the BBC in particular has to do. Thus you have "Two Pints of Lager" alongside "Look Around You"; two very different shows, with very different DVD releases, targeted at the respective audiences. Comedy shows that attract committed fans often have equally committed production teams behind them. Even Open All Hours has the pilot on the first series DVD, and that was the decision of BBC Worldwide, which shows they can do it even without a committed fan base attempting to 'reclaim' it (which suggests fans own the material in the first place; it wouldn't stand up in court, y'know).
As for rushes: there's many good reasons above why production companies rarely include these, and I have seen enough rushes, and been to enough recordings, to know that three hours of the cast and crew standing about does not in itself provide compulsive viewing. Selected rushes a la HHGTTG are delightful, as well as continuity annoucements and trailers, but I can't say that the omission of any of these deprives fans of anything in particular, IMO. After all, you didn't see it the first time round, so how do you know that they contain the Holy Grail? There's also a reasonable financial argument that suggests the commercial returns would not justify the considerable labour costs that would be involved.
I don't think DVD releases will get worse in the future, as there seems to be evidence that they are actually improving as companies get to know the market they're releasing them to, and the general public seem to be expecting good extras on all DVDs now anyway. The re-release of Carry On films with commentaries and original trailers are a case in point.
Well, my 2 pence, for what it's worth. I think fans are entitled to say what they would like on a DVD, but it would be far more effective as a suggestion of what you would be happy to spend money on, rather than a comedy version of the Crusades. The Brittas releases are a good example; we should ask the BBC why they were quite so un-cooperative with these releases. Be NICE, though.
Posted by Tanya Jones at October 28, 2003 09:05 PM
Grr. Spending too long on a comment, there. I was replying to M mainly, just in case there's confusion.
Posted by Tanya Jones at October 28, 2003 09:08 PM
I don't like rushes because of the Holy Grail factor - I like them because I'm interested in how the show was made, how editorial decisions were arrived at, how ideas developed during the sessions, etc. It's the rawness of it that appeals. The fact that someone isn't pointing out where the 'interesting' and 'funny' bits are. I've been to loads of audience recordings in my life and I've never been bored.
But yeah...I'm not insisting that Red Dwarf discs should feature nothing but full rushes sessions RIGHT NOW DAMMIT. It's just a dream I have for the future. As I say, I'm always amazed when any footage of that kind gets plundered.
The Bidduvlaugh stereotype? Well, they use stereotypes about me too - anoraks, trainspotters, etc. So it works both ways. I'm still baffled about why someone would want 'Drunk Featurette' though. If you want to watch something funny, you watch the episodes themselves, surely?
I also reckon the commissioning of DVDs is more whimsical than we might expect. How on earth did The High Life get a release, for example? I mean, I think it's a great show and I'm delighted it's out there...but in the scheme of things, it's an obscure sitcom of very limited commercial appeal. It can only have been released because an interested party pulled a few strings - and good for them.
In contrast, why are the Young Ones discs so bad? Because, unlike Red Dwarf, there isn't a loyal fanbase prepared to complain about the shortcomings. Which is very odd in itself, I always think, but there you are.
Yes, they remembered the Open All Hours pilot, But they forgot about the Porridge one. I think it's all down to someone in the office at the time saying 'Hang on a minute'. Or having a copy of Lewisohn to hand.
It's always frustrating the way the content of DVDs are 'unveiled', often when it's far too late to do anything about them. Some DVD companies (not G&N Productons, obviously) are annoyingly inpenetrable and wary of fans making suggestions. Hence they make obvious errors, and the first we know of them is when we're actually in HMV staring at the sleeve.
Finally, here's an example of a dubious decision regarding rushes. They've just released a Have I Got News For You disc featuring the unedited session of the show presented by Boris Johnson. Good, yes? Only it's not completely unedited - it's been tidied up for watchability, with a lot of the messier/technical faffing about removed. This is annoying because it would actually be *more* effort fo them to edit it than to leave it intact - so why bother? Do they think people would get confused by it? Were they squeamish about being 'too nerdy'? I mean, rushes are all or nothing - I don't see the point in skimping on them. There was plenty of disc space for the whole thing. Ditto the incompleteness of the pilot on the Knowing Me Knowing You DVD. It's fair enough when there are reasons for things being omitted, but I'm always interested to know what those reasons are.
Anyway, I've gone on a bit. Sorry.
Posted by M at October 29, 2003 02:03 AM
Well, I've blabbered on enough, so I'll keep it short.
1. Yes, there's enough said about 'geeky' types, but that's no reason to sink to their level. It's just as inaccurate, although your feelings are understandable.
2. I suppose the 'whimiscal' nature of some DVD releases was sort of what I was getting at. The High Life was a welcome surprise, and well done as well. I would guess that those involved wanted it released, but Network have a generally good record on releases, so it could have been them. I don't know, so I'll stop speculating.
3. The Young Ones was a bad release, but then, I'm not sure a 'fan base' would have made the difference when it's such an famous show, and as such capable of making a few bob. As for Porridge, that too is a bad release all round, but I was including Open All Hours as an example of how BBC Worldwide can occasionally get it right, and may start to release more of the same if given constructive feedback.
4. DVDs are commercial products, so I'm really not sure any company would be prepared to release details before the content is finalised. After all, they may be forced to drop something from the DVD, which would be embarrasing.
5. I really do disagree with you regarding rushes; but then this illustrates just how much this issue depends on individual preference. Rather than seeing the editing of HIGNFY rushes as a negative thing, surely this proves that some companies are waking up to the fact that a growing number of consumers would appreciate this footage? I find the attitude that rushes are 'all or nothing' somewhat bizarre; people get different things out of them, including you and me, it seems. I don't envy anyone who has to make decisions regarding the content of DVDs, as it's a very difficult job to judge what the majority of people would and would not consider watchable. You may find some interesting facts about the production within, but there will also be people who would find an edited version more digestable, and the company have to find the best compromise. Of course, that's not even considering rights issues, libel, space, etc......
Anyway, all this really proves is just how difficult DVD content is to judge. It's a young medium, and, if people are prepared to give useful feedback to production companies, I can't see why the quality of releases can't improve in the future. After all, you can be assured there will be more than one release of the Young Ones, even if it's only to update the cover. We need to be realistic about what we can expect, though.
Posted by Tanya Jones at October 29, 2003 07:17 PM
Incidentally, the packaging of the new HIGNFY DVD implies that the Boris Johnson extra *is* the unedited rushes, which is a ridiculous lie.
Personally, I'd like to see selected rushes included on the RD releases, even if only in say, a 10-15 minute chunk to demonstrate how a scene is recorded a la the Hitchhiker's discs where the inclusion of a rushes clip was met with great approval. There's nothing stopping particularly notable extracts being utilised, no matter how short. I'm surprised little clips of shots being set up etc don't appear in the new series 3 & 4 documentaries - I would have thought that would have been the logical thing to illustrate a feature of this sort.
I think M's anger is more to do with the rushes being relegated to nothing more than a source of people saying "fuck" and back-cover friendly 'deleted scenes', despite them containing many highly fascinating insights into the making of the show, whereas stuff like the 'Drunk' featurette is considered more worthy of inclusion (and also that they're more willing to clear irrelevant Chumbawumba songs than rights for production footage). That's unless I've grossly misread his opinion on the matter.
Posted by Darrell Jones at October 29, 2003 07:46 PM
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