Ian's Newsround - 23/01/04
Wah! I didn't win a place on the fans' commentary track! This is, I'm sure you'll agree, due to a vindictive vendetta against me personally, which is being pursued by several members of staff at Grant Naylor Productions. Or it could be that only 1.33% of the entrants could be successful. Still, massive congratulations to Steve "Cpt-D" Harris! Make sure you give your favourite website a quick mention, you jammy bastard. Also, congratulations to another occasional G&T-ite - Ruth Latchford. I went for a drink with her a couple of weeks ago, and she's ace. So, well done, Ruth!
In other DVD news, the chapter points are up. Ellard is right - they are probably the least exciting DVD detail, but that won't stop me from rabbiting on about them for a paragraph or so. Let's start with the Star Trek reference: the second chapter of DNA shares a name with the eighth film in the series - First Contact. I suggest you re-read that sentence as soon as you wake up tomorrow, and then quote The Last Day. Observations - the white hole looks lovely as ever on the chapter menu, "Using Your Head" from that episode is the cheesiest title ever, and the chapters are nicely spaced out for all episodes, apart from Dimension Jump, which seems to have about four in the first ten minutes. Oh, and the collector's booklet seems equally as gorgeous as its predeccessors. Next week: deleted scenes (!)
Chris Barrie must be flogging something. Presumably, it's the Red Dwarf and Brittas DVDs. Why else would he appear on two daytime chat shows in the same week? He'll be on ITV1's Des and Mel on Monday 2nd February, and then five's Terry and Gabby on Thursday the 5th. Tickets for latter are free, and available from the address on the relevant article. I'm actually in Nodnol that day, but can't possibly make the recording. How annoying. This isn't the first time Chris has been interviewed by Terry Wogan, obviously...
And finally, be sure to have a goosey at the Lurve featurette. Did I say Lurve featurette? I meant Funny Valentine article. It's easy to get those two dudes mixed up.
Comments
"Chris Barrie must be flogging something. Presumably, it's the Red Dwarf and Brittas DVDs."
- May also be Tomb Raider 2, which is released on 2nd Feb.
Posted by Blake at January 23, 2004 08:59 PM
I've just been informed how much money is being spent on the fan commentary tracks.
That money could have gone to a hundred other uses.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 23, 2004 09:32 PM
It'll be like the Brass Eye Drugs commentary but REAL.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 23, 2004 09:34 PM
No offence to anyone involved like, but still.
The money being spent on it is simply a gross misuse of cash. Ross McGinley is truly a man not safe around money of any sort.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 23, 2004 09:40 PM
Well if the selection of Ruth and Darling have anything to go by they have picked 8 interesting people that i will gladly pay to listen to. Stop being an old cynic, you!
Posted by Cappsy at January 23, 2004 11:03 PM
I'm not being a cynic, the amount of money spent on this is appalling. Not to criticise anybody, but what can any of the 8 fans bring? Nice people as they may be and as nice a day ads they'll have, they can add absolutely nothing, other than laughing in all the right places and saying they like Chris Barrie.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 23, 2004 11:41 PM
Ah, laughing in the right places and Saying I like Chris Barrie, Thanks for the tip, I'll add it to my notes :). I have to say I'm chuffed to bits, and sincerely hope I don't let the fans down.Thanks for all the Congrats etc..I'm sure Ruth is an excellent choice, she has a great sense of humour and is very knowlegeable....
Posted by Cpt-D at January 24, 2004 12:09 AM
Seriously, I'm trying not to be heartless or whatever, but am finding it difficult to grasp the point - what use is the fan commentary to the buyer of the DVD?
Cpt-D, what are you actually going to say? Even anyone with a bit of trivia or production info will only know it second-hand from a book or interview, therefore rendering it useless (as that information will be available in a more reliable form elsewhere). Unless someone was at one of the recordings, there is nothing anyone could bring to it other than just reacting to the episode as a viewer, which anybody watching can do for free.
I'm genuinely desperate for a justification for this other than 8 people having a day out. Someone should tell McGinley and Ellard that they're DVD producers, not Jimmy Saville.
If they were so desperate for a competition prize along those lines they should have had 4 people visit and listen in on each cast commentary recording session. Much cheaper, and probably more fun for the competition winners.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 24, 2004 12:42 AM
If they were real fans they would do the commentary for the pleasure of it (and for the glee of being ever-preservated on DVD, something to boast to friends about), not for loads of stinking money that deprives them of other extras.
Posted by BigState at January 24, 2004 02:32 AM
I have no idea where you get your information from, but the winners are doing this for free..Whilst I get a return train ticket there is no other incentive other that the 8 of us being huge fans and wanting to be a part of something to do with Red Dwarf...I can't speak for the others but I for one would gladly walk to London for an opportunity like this...everyone I have spoken to in the way of Red Dwarf fans have said they would like to see fan involvement on the DVD's from the series one onwards...If anyone thinks I am doing this for anything other than a love of Red Dwarf and a wish to be part of it, is sadly mistaken. I can guarantee this will cost me money, Food,Day's holiday etc..So get your facts right.
Posted by Cpt-D at January 24, 2004 10:23 AM
Damn, I want to go to that recording but sadly I have a uni audition + interview on that day! damn my luck!!
Regarding the fan commentry, I'm not sure I really like the idea but It will make a change and I'm sure I'd listen to it at least once! will they still do the cast commentry? (I don't want it to replace it)
Congrads to all the people involved in it though, I'm sure your gonna have so much fun!
Last thing - Hi people, you don't know me an I don't know you but I've been on this site for a while looking around and this is the first time I've posted on it.
Hi and Bye!
Posted by Snacky at January 24, 2004 11:05 AM
First of all, I've said this directly to two winners, but Congratulations again to Steve and Ruth. I am unbelievably jealous; but I got my fame from the Series 3 DVD which I'm over the moon about, so I'll live with not winning this
I also sense a bit of jealousy from Darrell. In reply to the comment 'I'm genuinely desperate for a justification for this other than 8 people having a day out. Someone should tell McGinley and Ellard that they're DVD producers, not Jimmy Saville.'
Justification: well 8 people having a day out with their TV Hero�s is probably every fans dream come true. But This also, I think is a carefully planned marketing exercise by GNP, as I don't think a fan commentary on a DVD has been done before. The Press will most likely comment on this, and thus advertising Red Dwarf and its fan base, which will most likely get more people to watch Red Dwarf and thus sell more DVD's etc.
Also BigState, my comment to you is... did you not read the Terms & Conditions for the competition? Travel to the studio would be paid for, but overnight accommodation wouldn't. So if you don't live in the London area; the cost of food & drink, accommodation etc have to be paid for by the winner. Also as Steve said it's cost him a day off work (not that I think I'd mind)
Ok that�s me done, I just thought I'd put my two dollercents in.
Posted by Paul (TRD) at January 24, 2004 11:21 AM
Yes Snacky, the cast commentary will still be on there.
And I agree with Cpt-D about everything else. And, you know, the commentary could be really really good. It could also be really really bad of course, but I'd prefer to wait and listen to it before I excercise some kind of judgement to it. One of the things I love about the cast commentary is listening to people genuinely love the episodes and find them hilarious, when it could be said that I'd become a bit jaded about them; at the very least, it'll achieve something similar to that, and hopefully it'll be far far more. I'm always interested on opinions on episodes; reviews, etc - hopefully the commentary will include a lot of stuff like that too.
And, you know, yes, it is nice GNP are doing something great for the fans. I think that's a good thing, recognising the people who have supported the show. Hopefully it'll be an good extra as well, and the money spent on it will be completely justified.
Posted by John Hoare at January 24, 2004 01:50 PM
I never said that the fans would be getting paid, I was talking about the expense this is costing in studio time / engineers / mixdown / lawyers / certification / people's travel expenses (and remember that this includes flying someone over from Australia). It's thousands and thousands of pounds we're talking here, and all for an hour of pointlessness that serves no purpose whatsoever. That money could have gone to better actual extras, or even better extras on other DVD releases which have none.
"I think is a carefully planned marketing exercise by GNP, as I don't think a fan commentary on a DVD has been done before. The Press will most likely comment on this, and thus advertising Red Dwarf and its fan base, which will most likely get more people to watch Red Dwarf and thus sell more DVD's etc."
That makes no sense whatsoever, and fan commentaries have never been done before for A VERY GOOD REASON. This is not going to be mentioned by "the press" (outside reviews of the DVD in SFX et al) at all. Sales will not increase as a result of the inclusion of a fan commentary - in fact 'Includes Fan Commentary' could even dissuade potential buyers as it makes the range seem very cliquey.
I can't even be bothered responding to the "jealousy" comment. It's as hollow and useless as "I'd like to see you do better!!!1".
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 24, 2004 02:14 PM
"this includes flying someone over from Australia"
If you'd actually even bothered to read the information on the official site, you'd have seen the words, "UK travel costs", which means costs within the UK. Understand? They're not paying £500+ for a return flight ticket from Australia, so stop getting yer frilly knickers in a smegging knot! :p
Posted by Sparky at January 24, 2004 03:39 PM
"I was talking about the expense this is costing in studio time / engineers / mixdown / lawyers / certification / people's travel expenses"
Well there is going to be a commentary track anyway so the studio costs etc. would already be accounted for even if it was only the cast who were doing it.
"It's thousands and thousands of pounds we're talking here, and all for an hour of pointlessness that serves no purpose whatsoever. That money could have gone to better actual extras, or even better extras on other DVD releases which have none."
Which DVD Releases? And anyway is it the BBC or GNP who are footing the bill? If it's GNP, then isn't it up to them what they spend the money on? And if it�s the BBC they can afford a few thousand pounds, the BBC is a HUGE company.
This is not going to be mentioned by "the press" (outside reviews of the DVD in SFX et al) at all.
OK, well even if it's only in Sci-Fi magazines - then they're hitting the target audience aren't they? I mean it's no good selling to a grandma who reads The Times is it? (That's not an ageist comment, it's just older people generally do not like Red Dwarf - maybe they do and good on them)
"I can't even be bothered responding to the "jealousy" comment. It's as hollow and useless as "I'd like to see you do better!!!1"."
Say that again in English please�.
Posted by Paul (TRD) at January 24, 2004 04:18 PM
"Well there is going to be a commentary track anyway so the studio costs etc. would already be accounted for even if it was only the cast who were doing it."
This is wrong - it's additional costs, and an entirely seperate session. Therefore almost doubled costs. Totally unnecessary. Studio time, engineers, the edit/mixdown, the presence of the lawyers and BBFC classification are all obscenely expensive.
"Which DVD Releases?"
Where to start? The Young Ones is the most obvious example of where money could and should have gone instead. Any of the horrible 'Great Comedy' or 'Classic Comedy' ranges, really.
"And anyway is it the BBC or GNP who are footing the bill? ...if it�s the BBC they can afford a few thousand pounds, the BBC is a HUGE company."
It's BBC Worldwide, and the expense could and should have gone elsewhere. They don't have unlimited cash that they'll happily budget on anything without a second thought, and BBCWW are seperate to the BBC anyway. It's not one big autonomous, infinitely rich entity. The costs for this fan commentary are a total waste of money.
"OK, well even if it's only in Sci-Fi magazines - then they're hitting the target audience aren't they?"
All the others have been reviewed and featured in sci-fi magazines - the fan commentary is not going to increase promotion or sales of the disc in any form. You suggest that no-one at all knows or will know about the DVD releases until TV Zone mention the fan commentary, when sales will triple overnight.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 24, 2004 05:58 PM
Darrell, can I ask, how do you know how much all this is costing? Do you work for BBCWW?
Can I ask you something else? Are you a fan of Red Dwarf or not?
Posted by Paul (TRD) at January 24, 2004 06:12 PM
I don't work for BBCWW, but was told in confidentiality about the various costs of a commentary from a BBCWW employee, and I became very shocked. I was waiting for this news article to unleash my anger.
And yes, of course I'm a fan of Red Dwarf.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 24, 2004 06:23 PM
OK, fairy nuff.
Posted by Paul (TRD) at January 24, 2004 07:04 PM
That was an anti-climax of a sort. Please keep going. Say something Darrell - call someone a cunt or something, it sounds better coming from you.
Posted by d at January 24, 2004 07:35 PM
Well, first of all Darrell clearly doesn't like the idea and that is his right and I suspect he is not alone..What I would say though is, judging by the large number of messages on at least 5 sites I visit and the several e'mails I have recieved everyone I know seem to think it's a good idea.
Wether it will be any good or not is yet to be seen or heard..The BBC and GNP seem to breaking new ground with the Red Dwarf DVD's and the discs seem to doing very well indeed. Extras or the lack of on other releases is a huge issue at the moment, but until things are tried and tested nobody knows exactly what works and what doesn't.
It seems to me at the moment, comparing Red Dwarf DVD's with extra's sales wise with other releases without extra's I/E BlackAdder, Reggie Perrin etc, there must be a huge arguement now FOR extras..
I would say, the sooner the right kind of Extras
are decided upon in general the more likely we will get extras on all releases, but that needs experimentation, but like everything else, only time will tell...Obviousley I'm hoping the commentaries will be a huge success leading to many others getting the chance to have a go on future discs...If it all goes horribly wrong, I'll be the first to appologise for my part in it all...All I ask is that people give it a chance...It is after all a great prize and a brave move by those organising it....
Posted by Cpt-D at January 24, 2004 11:07 PM
Of course it's a great prize, and I hope you have a fantastic day, but my point is that there's nothing really in it for the purchaser of the DVD. You'll have an amazing experience and everything, I really hope you do (and you will), but as a DVD extra it's completely and utterly useless.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 24, 2004 11:37 PM
"as a DVD extra it's completely and utterly useless"
Well, until you hear the actual commentary, I don't see you can say that - to YOU maybe, but to other people it could be the best thing since sliced bread. Listening to the cast's commentary the other night I almost fell asleep cos it was so boring, and hasn't particularly made me want to listen to the others now. As for the model shots ... Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
So what YOU may think is crap, others may not. I shall certainly look forward to hearing Capt-D's dulcet tones, which I'm sure will be a damn sight more interesting than hours of boring model shots or Danny-John Jules telling us how he once went to McDonalds.
Posted by Sparky at January 25, 2004 12:05 AM
Gah! The model shots are one of the most interesting extras on there!
HOWEVER: your post has summed up the extras situation in a nutshell; what some people find boring, others find fascinating - WHATEVER the extra is. Case closed, frankly.
Posted by John Hoare at January 25, 2004 12:11 AM
Christ Darrell, what a pathetic little twat you are. It's no wonder you didn't respond to the jealousy comment, it would have been defending the indefensible. The bitterness oozing from you in this thread has stunk my house out.
How do you know people are only going to say things "second-hand from a book or interview"? They may know something about the other work of a one-off supporting actor that may be of interest, for example. Not everybody has your lack of imagination.
"I don't work for BBCWW, but was told in confidentiality about the various costs of a commentary from a BBCWW employee"
Well, you kept that very fucking confidential didn't you. Well done you!
It's fair enough if you don't want this particular feature, but you simply come across as a petulant child by attempting to deny others the pleasure, and blame them for not getting your Young Ones extras. Boo fucking hoo.
When a release is as feature packed as the Red Dwarf DVDs, nobody can expect to be a big fan of every single bit, but that is a cause for rejoicing at the diversity of human tastes, not for sulking on a website.
Oh, and when you say the money could have been gone to "a hundred other uses", well, so could all the money you spend on DVDs. Or did you really mean "a hundred other uses that satisfy me, Lord Darrell Jones."? Yes, of course you did you whining fucking tosser.
Posted by Munson at January 25, 2004 01:10 AM
I'm not even going to respond to that, except to pick you up on this point:
- "Well, you kept that very fucking confidential didn't you. Well done you!" I never revealed the amount of money, or the BBC employee's name. Read the fucking words.
Oh, and hi Andrew.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 25, 2004 04:04 AM
"Oh, and hi Andrew."
???
Posted by Bobby Tambling at January 25, 2004 05:10 AM
Just to clarify - Ellard has only posted once on this site, and that was around the III release. He certainly hasn't posted on this news story at all.
The dangers of assumptions, there.
Posted by John Hoare at January 25, 2004 01:59 PM
"The BBC and GNP seem to breaking new ground with the Red Dwarf DVD's"
Sorry, but how? Are you talking about the menus? Or the cover spines that line up?
Posted by f at January 25, 2004 02:11 PM
"fan commentaries have never been done before"
I'm pretty sure there's one on a He-Man & the Masters of the Universe DVD. Congratulations to those who have been chosen, by the way.
Posted by clem at January 25, 2004 03:20 PM
I must say - whilst I agree with practically everything people have said *for* the fan commentary, the comments Cpt-D have said about "right kind of Extras are decided upon in general" and "experimentation" seem slightly weird - it's well-known what kind of extras people want on DVDs by now. Sure, it applies to stuff such as fan commentaries, etc (which admittedly is what we're talking about) - but it doesn't really apply in a wider context. We *know* what we want to see as extras - commentaries! Deleted scenes! Outtakes! (The last two if avaliable, and if they can be cleared.) Documentaries! Trailers! And loads more. It's not like the DVD format came out *yesterday*. Huge amounts of other companies have managed much more far earlier on - BBCWW should be *groundbreaking*, not reticent. Of course, they can experiment in other areas, and come up with new stuff - that would be great - but it's not a reason not to put interesting stuff as extras in the meantime.
Having said that, I do agree with Cpt-D's other points. And let's hope the RD DVDs (amongst a few others; LoG being a particular example) set a proper precedent.
Posted by John Hoare at January 25, 2004 03:23 PM
I'd like to know why the Japanese episode of The End didn't have an alternative English soundtrack, to be honest. At least then it would have been "The End Remastered" as an extra (albeit with a Japanese logo to start off), to remind us of something they actually tried to do, rather than being an extra that is utterly unwatchable after seconds. I know hardly anyone liked Red Dwarf Remastered (myself included), but if they were going to include the first episode of the series (which was the one most tampered with) for curiosity reasons, they should have given us the English soundtrack as well. They could have called the extra "The End Remastered", and if anyone had been interested, the Japanese soundtrack would have been available - that's the way round it should have been.
Posted by jesley carrion at January 25, 2004 03:40 PM
"Hi Andrew" wasn't meant to be taken seriously, I was taking the piss out of the poster's hyper-defensiveness. I knew as soon as I posted it that it would be taken literally.
If I'm just going to be sworn at and insulted purely for having a (perfectly valid) opinion that isn't the usual "oh well, can't complain, something for everybody, after all it's not as though I'm paying �17 for the pleasure" blandness, I'm not prepared to reply in a reasonable manner. However, I'm in a particularly bad mood, so I will anyway.
"Christ Darrell, what a pathetic little twat you are."
Thanks, at least you've proven yourself a reasonable person from the outset.
"It's no wonder you didn't respond to the jealousy comment, it would have been defending the indefensible. The bitterness oozing from you in this thread has stunk my house out."
Yeah, I'm jealous. Jealous and bitter. As that's the only explanation for somebody having a negative opinion, isn't it.
In any case, I got a laugh out of your amusingly mangled metaphor. Tell me, what does bitterness actually smell like?
"How do you know people are only going to say things "second-hand from a book or interview"?"
Unless they were (a) at the recording, (b) related or a close friend of one of the production team or actors, there is no possible way they could offer first-hand information. It only takes a bit of logic. 99.9% of Red Dwarf fans (including me) know all their info from secondary sources - that's an unarguable fact. What I am trying to get across is that there's nothing any of them can say that provides an unique insight into the production (unless either of the above two reasons apply, both of which seem unlikely, frankly). This competely negates the point of an audio commentary in the first place, yes?
"They may know something about the other work of a one-off supporting actor that may be of interest, for example."
Yes, but unless it's actually a personal recollection of a meeting with the person in question, it's still going to be second-hand info and as a result not as trustable as the source.
"It's fair enough if you don't want this particular feature, but you simply come across as a petulant child by attempting to deny others the pleasure"
Attempting to deny others the pleasure? What, am I breaking into Andrew Ellard's office or something and fiddling with the masters? I'm voicing my annoyance at the continual money-wasting that infects the Red Dwarf DVD range, when other BBCWW titles are severely under-budgeted and could do with even half the attention that RD's getting. I pay for these DVDs with my own money. They cost �17 a pop, I have every right to expect a quality product and express concern about mismanagement of budgets. It is the cash that arises from sales that's being ploughed into future budgets and it's depressing to see this money being wasted in such a pathetic way.
"and blame them for not getting your Young Ones extras. Boo fucking hoo."
The only person I'm blaming for not having Young Ones extras is Ross McGinley. Your 'boo fucking hoo' suggests an insane narrow-mindedness.
"When a release is as feature packed as the Red Dwarf DVDs, nobody can expect to be a big fan of every single bit, but that is a cause for rejoicing at the diversity of human tastes, not for sulking on a website."
Here it goes again. Yes, it's feature-packed. Some of those features are utterly without point. If you bought a new edition of your favourite novel which had a wordsearch and some join-the-dots pictures at the back, wouldn't you be annoyed? Or would you just shrug your shoulders and go "oh well, you can't expect to like everything!"
As I see it, the Red Dwarf DVDs are produced principally with the pre-teen, "smeg"-quoting, T-shirt wearing, "I AM A RED DWARF FAN" brigade in mind, with an end result that's disconcertingly patronising to anybody who isn't one of these obnoxious little twats.
"Oh, and when you say the money could have been gone to "a hundred other uses", well, so could all the money you spend on DVDs. Or did you really mean "a hundred other uses that satisfy me, Lord Darrell Jones."?"
THIS ANALOGY MAKES NO SENSE.
If Doctor Who fans found that the DVDs had dispensed with the rushes footage, production notes and contempory programme excerpts in favour of a CGI 'CATCH THE DALEKS!' game, an additional commentary from a load of irrelevant people or a featurette compiling footage of all the Doctor's companions screaming set to Bananarama's cover of 'Help!', they'd be rightfully livid.
If people who like The Young Ones, Hancock's Half Hour, or People Like Us (to name one malnourished title from each comedy range) see that the discs are poorly-mastered and extraless, and are told that budget problems prevented extras from being included, why shouldn't they be annoyed that huge amounts of money are being utterly wasted on throwaway tat for the Red Dwarf discs?
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 25, 2004 04:02 PM
"If Doctor Who fans found that the DVDs had dispensed with the rushes footage, production notes and contempory programme excerpts in favour of a CGI 'CATCH THE DALEKS!' game, an additional commentary from a load of irrelevant people or a featurette compiling footage of all the Doctor's companions screaming set to Bananarama's cover of 'Help!', they'd be rightfully livid."
Christ, how many times is this Dr Who comparison going to be used and re-used? The Dr Who DVDs are terrific, no question about that - but part of the reason for this is that they have seven dedicated people working on it, and a fanbase which makes clear what it wants from the DVDs - what it wants in this case being some old Blue Peter footage and poor-quality rushes. Now, bearing in mind no other BBC show, not even Red Dwarf, has a Restoration Team working on it and a fanbase who all happen to be archive TV fans, isn't it a little unfair to keep making the analogy? I don't think the Smiths are half as good as the Beatles but I'm not going to start calling Morrissey a cunt because he isn't John Lennon.
My problem isn't with your opinions, Darrell, as I find them mostly sound and you obviously know what you're talking about. On the other hand, on this board and elsewhere you have an infuriating tendency to see everything in black and white terms - no space for complexity or ambiguity, everything and everyone has to be either brilliant or A CUNT WHO IS TEH ENEMY OF COMEDY (usually the latter). Strange as it may seem, it isn't in the BBC charter to make their DVD releases into large compilations of archive footage. Of course it's great when they do, and of course our lives are all going to be changed by some footage of Craig Charles giggling on Loose Ends in 1987, but you aren't going to win people round to your argument by being so dogmatic.
"As I see it, the Red Dwarf DVDs are produced principally with the pre-teen, "smeg"-quoting, T-shirt wearing, "I AM A RED DWARF FAN" brigade in mind, with an end result that's disconcertingly patronising to anybody who isn't one of these obnoxious little twats."
Yes, that's why every disc contains half an hour of deleted scenes, 10 minutes of out takes and up to 85 minutes of interviews. SHADES OF GREY, Darrell. Do you see?
Posted by Simon at January 25, 2004 04:43 PM
Incidentally, the Doctor Who discs have very recently had their budgets reduced.
Justify that as well.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 25, 2004 04:46 PM
"If Doctor Who fans found that the DVDs had dispensed with the rushes footage, production notes and contempory programme excerpts in favour of a CGI 'CATCH THE DALEKS!' game, an additional commentary from a load of irrelevant people or a featurette compiling footage of all the Doctor's companions screaming set to Bananarama's cover of 'Help!', they'd be rightfully livid."
Christ, how many times is this Dr Who comparison going to be used and re-used? The Dr Who DVDs are terrific, no question about that - but part of the reason for this is that they have seven dedicated people working on it, and a fanbase which makes clear what it wants from the DVDs - what it wants in this case being some old Blue Peter footage and poor-quality rushes. Now, bearing in mind no other BBC show, not even Red Dwarf, has a Restoration Team working full-time on it and an insanely dedicated fanbase who all happen to be archive TV fans, isn't it a little unfair to keep making the analogy? I don't think the Smiths are half as good as the Beatles but I'm not going to start calling Morrissey a cunt because he isn't John Lennon.
My problem isn't with your opinions, Darrell, as I find them mostly sound and you obviously know what you're talking about. On the other hand, on this board and elsewhere you have an infuriating tendency to see everything in black and white terms - no space for complexity or ambiguity, everything and everyone has to be either brilliant or A CUNT WHO IS TEH ENEMY OF COMEDY (usually the latter). Strange as it may seem, it isn't in the BBC charter to make their DVD releases into large compilations of archive footage. Of course it's great when they do, and of course our lives are all going to be changed by some footage of Craig Charles giggling on Loose Ends in 1987, but you aren't going to win people round to your argument by being so dogmatic.
"As I see it, the Red Dwarf DVDs are produced principally with the pre-teen, "smeg"-quoting, T-shirt wearing, "I AM A RED DWARF FAN" brigade in mind, with an end result that's disconcertingly patronising to anybody who isn't one of these obnoxious little twats."
Yes, that's why every disc contains half an hour of deleted scenes, 10 minutes of out takes, raw model footage, music cues, three hours of the cast reminiscing about each other's haircuts and up to 85 minutes of interviews. SHADES OF GREY, Darrell.
Also, didn't you claim to like the featurette on the III DVD?
Posted by Simon at January 25, 2004 04:48 PM
Not sure why that turned up twice with an addendum. Apologies.
Posted by Simon at January 25, 2004 04:49 PM
"Christ, how many times is this Dr Who comparison going to be used and re-used? The Dr Who DVDs are terrific, no question about that - but part of the reason for this is that they have seven dedicated people working on it"
Stop right there. It's not seven DVD producers we're talking about here, and it wouldn't take seven people to sort out rushes footage, programme excerpts and other stuff for the Red Dwarf DVDs.
"what it wants in this case being some old Blue Peter footage and poor-quality rushes."
What it wants is a high-quality DVD which offers as big an insight into the production as possible, with as much available archive as possible utilised. This isn't unreasonable for comedy DVDs either.
"Now, bearing in mind no other BBC show, not even Red Dwarf, has a Restoration Team working full-time on it"
Not full-time at all. It's something they do outside of their normal work as BBC cameramen/producers/engineers, because they love the show so much.
"isn't it a little unfair to keep making the analogy?"
No. They both have the same DVD producers. Red Dwarf's budget swamps even the 'special' Doctor Who releases. There is some crossover with the audience. It is not an unfair comparison.
"I don't think the Smiths are half as good as the Beatles but I'm not going to start calling Morrissey a cunt because he isn't John Lennon."
Again, another weak analogy that doesn't have any relevance.
"On the other hand, on this board and elsewhere you have an infuriating tendency to see everything in black and white terms - no space for complexity or ambiguity, everything and everyone has to be either brilliant or A CUNT WHO IS TEH ENEMY OF COMEDY (usually the latter)."
Patronising bollocks, there.
"Strange as it may seem, it isn't in the BBC charter to make their DVD releases into large compilations of archive footage."
Why shouldn't they cram the Red Dwarf DVDs (and in fact, all DVDs) full of comtemporaneous archive? What possible argument is there for this not to be the case?
"Yes, that's why every disc contains half an hour of deleted scenes, 10 minutes of out takes, raw model footage, music cues, three hours of the cast reminiscing about each other's haircuts and up to 85 minutes of interviews. SHADES OF GREY, Darrell."
The deleted scenes on the first two discs were mastered appallingly (leaving them almost inaudible in parts). The out-takes are lazily taken from the Smeg Ups releases instead of the rawer versions being sourced sans their over-production. The model footage is edited down severely in case it makes an idiot cry. The music cues are tainted by several rubbish errors and poor mastering. Do you see? They could have least have done it properly.
The interviews are fine, however.
"Also, didn't you claim to like the featurette on the III DVD?"
It was watchable enough the first time round, but there are a load of other things I'd rather have seen in its place. The main reason I liked it then was that it brought back memories of a Doctor Who convetion I'd attended two weeks previously (where they play those music video clip things as continuity, introducing the guests).
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 25, 2004 05:32 PM
"there's nothing any of them can say that provides an unique insight into the production. This competely negates the point of an audio commentary in the first place, yes?"
Well not really, no. The DVD producers know that none of the winners could add any insight into the particular episodes from a PRODUCTION point of view; however, surely that isn't the point of doing them? They're being done to add a FAN'S point of view - I'm sure at least some interesting/amusing tidbits of information will come out of the commentaries. It's gotta be better than Craig, Danny & Norman saying, 'Oooh, there's a funny bit coming up in a minute...' - how insightful is that?
"The Young Ones, Hancock's Half Hour, or People Like Us ... budget problems prevented extras from being included ... huge amounts of money are being utterly wasted on throwaway tat for the Red Dwarf discs?"
Well it's not a question of one big pot of money being thrown at all the DVD's - each individual project has to make a profit, else it's not worth doing. Sad, but true.
So, RD series 1 & 2 had a smaller budget, but due to decent sales they could increase it for 3 & 4, and hopefully likewise for 5,6,7 & 8.
Now, for the DVD's you mentioned, obviously they didn't think that the sales would be enough to warrant spending huge amounts of money on putting extras together. Okay, so The Young Ones is great, but it's a fairly cultish comedy from the 80's, Hancock is again unlikely to generate large DVD sales, and as for People Like Us... how many people even watched that, let alone are gonna buy the DVD?
We'd all love to see every DVD ever released with hundreds of extras, commentaries, deleted scenes, interviews etc, but it's just not gonna happen.
Posted by Sparky at January 25, 2004 05:35 PM
Simon is completely correct, and has said everything I want to say but far better.
Actually, I think he should take over G&T.
Posted by John Hoare at January 25, 2004 05:45 PM
"Well it's not a question of one big pot of money being thrown at all the DVD's - each individual project has to make a profit, else it's not worth doing. Sad, but true."
Of course, but it's the pure *injustice* of it all that infuriates me. Like when NASA spend four-hundred-and-stupid billion pounds on getting a photo of some rocks of Mars.
"It's gotta be better than Craig, Danny & Norman saying, 'Oooh, there's a funny bit coming up in a minute...' - how insightful is that?"
Not in the least bit insightful, but every episode of the cast commentary has at least one fascinating tidbit in it. All because the people involved were THERE at the time.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 25, 2004 05:54 PM
"Not full-time at all. It's something they do outside of their normal work as BBC cameramen/producers/engineers, because they love the show so much."
What I don't understand is why G&T readers don't volunteer themselves as unpaid workers for Red Dwarf DVDs. Surely you know of all the archive material you want on the disks, and many of you may have access to them or at least might know where to start looking.
"They're being done to add a FAN'S point of view - I'm sure at least some interesting/amusing tidbits of information will come out of the commentaries. It's gotta be better than Craig, Danny & Norman saying, 'Oooh, there's a funny bit coming up in a minute...' - how insightful is that?"
Ah, I remember watching this episode for the first time - it was after I'd seen the later series and I was really looking forward to how Kryten originally sounded and looked with David Ross in the role. I borrowed the video from a friend at school, and when I gave it back I pretended to have wiped over it with Children's ITV or some such thing. God I was a smeg-head in those days!!!!1 Oh, and this one... I was watching it with my brother and he was really disappointed with the episode after reading the second of the novels. He said they dealt with the ideas a lot better in that. Plus the acting gets in the way of how your imagination originally constructs things, don't you think?
What I really find fascinating is how Rimmer's "H" evolves over time. Why do you think that is - I mean how would the RD makers justify it? It goes with the changes in his costume as well. And with minor redesigns of Kryten's head.
Posted by jesley carrion at January 25, 2004 06:06 PM
"Ah, I remember watching this episode for the first time - it was after I'd seen the later series and I was really looking forward to how Kryten originally sounded and looked with David Ross in the role. I borrowed the video from a friend at school, and when I gave it back I pretended to have wiped over it with Children's ITV or some such thing. God I was a smeg-head in those days!!!!1 Oh, and this one... I was watching it with my brother and he was really disappointed with the episode after reading the second of the novels. He said they dealt with the ideas a lot better in that. Plus the acting gets in the way of how your imagination originally constructs things, don't you think?"
You've inadvertently proved my point. Is this really worth several thousand quid to record?
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 25, 2004 06:16 PM
It wasn't inadvertant. I was being hilariously ironic.
Posted by jesley carrion at January 25, 2004 07:14 PM
I realised that about half a second after I pressed post. I was too embarrassed to correct myself.
Guh.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 25, 2004 07:47 PM
Hello...
I *knew* there would have to be some negative comments about the DVD commentaries somewhere on the 'net & here they are!
Oh well, each to their own. I make the assumption Darrell, that you didn't enter the competition out of principle? Me, I entered on the remotest of remote off-chances that I might be lucky enough to be chosen to participate in something that hadn't been done before (unless the He-Man comment of earlier is correct). The side-effects of that being to meet the cast again & have a little recognition for it too, as well as trying my best to make the thing work on my part.
We don't know if it will be something worth listening to, but until the end results are witnessed, you can't judge whether it's truly a waste of money or not. Ok, I'm biased as I've been chosen out of the 600 to do this...I would say that, wouldn't I? It's also hard not to take your comments personally when I'm personally involved.
We'll see in November whether your opinions are held by the majority or not. If it doesn't work, well I'll have had a nice time anyway & if it does, which I'm fairly confident it will, then it *will* have been money well spent.
Posted by Ruth at January 25, 2004 09:30 PM
You, Cpt-D and the other six *will* have a nice time. That's my point though, it's giving 8 people a day out, not enhancing the DVD experience for the buyer.
I did enter at the time actually, because (a) I couldn't think of any reason not to, and (b) I was a bit bored. I'm not sure why I bothered, as I knew it was impossible I'd be chosen (publicly slagging off of the DVDs and McGinley would have seen to that even if my entry form had been stunning, which it clearly wasn't).
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 25, 2004 10:15 PM
Well, I think you've made your points very clear and I can accept that your 'anger' isn't aimed at the winners. I don't intend to come out with a load of facts and figures that people already know, nor do I intend to bleat on about how great it all is, although in the 'heat of the moment' who knows..My main concern at the moment is not to sound a complete Prat and not to make it sound like the fans are a bunch of dorks..
I'm hoping to aim for some middle ground in the hope that it may sound at least slightly interesting..The fact is, Many people here and on the other major sites know an awful lot about Red Dwarf, Ian and John being prime examples, I myself have never been the type to be able to retain vast ammounts of info and facts, yet still consider myself a huge fan..so we will see..
I doubt than many people who buy the DVDs have anywhere near the knowledge of Dwarf that those who use this and other sites have so I'm hoping that some points/titbits I hope to use may be 'news' to some if not most of the buyers..Of course I may be horribly wrong..What I'm trying to say is the people reading this are amongst the 'Hardcore' group of fans and I'm comforting myself with the thought that the majority of buyers are not anywhere near as knowledgeable as you lot...But hey, they can only hang me once...
Posted by Cpt-D at January 25, 2004 10:58 PM
"Of course, but it's the pure *injustice* of it all that infuriates me. Like when NASA spend four-hundred-and-stupid billion pounds on getting a photo of some rocks of Mars."
You useless, hopeless, soulless sack of shit.
There is more to human existence than rushes of Chris Morris laughing.
Posted by Ed at January 25, 2004 11:49 PM
I agree with Darrell.
What useful information or reasoned opinion could eight devoted fans of a series bring to a commentary?
OH WAIT
*falls over and dies*
Posted by Mongrel at January 26, 2004 12:06 AM
Hi Darren. You seem to be getting a little upset here and I'm not sure why. I can appreciate that you don't want to listen to this particular feature on the DVD - if I were going to buy it, I don't think I would - but you seem to take its presence as some kind of personal affront.
For example you say:
'If I'm just going to be sworn at and insulted purely for having a (perfectly valid) opinion that isn't the usual "oh well, can't complain, something for everybody, after all it's not as though I'm paying �17 for the pleasure" blandness...'
What you have to understand Darren is that everyone else is paying the 17 pounds, so believeing that the DVD should be made to your personal specifications isn't a perfectly valid opinion. It's entirely unreasonable.
"Here it goes again. Yes, it's feature-packed. Some of those features are utterly without point. If you bought a new edition of your favourite novel which had a wordsearch and some join-the-dots pictures at the back, wouldn't you be annoyed? Or would you just shrug your shoulders and go "oh well, you can't expect to like everything!"
That makes no sense. A novel is a single thing, into which the idea of a wordsearch and a join-the -dots puzzle doesn't fit. A DVD is often a collection of very different things. Sorry Darren, but that's an awful analogy."
Also Darren, you seem to be suggesting that the sole purpose of the extras on the holy and righteous Doctor Who DVDs is to educate the much more intelligent fanbase, who would never dream of dressing up as a cyberman or wearing a "Five Rounds Rapid" t-shirt about the production process. How does including "A Fix With Sontarans" on the Two Doctors achieve this? Couldn't that space have been better used for an interview with Peter Moffat about why the first sighting of the Sontarans was in a long shot?
Phew, I've barely scratched the surface there and I'm worn out. There's a lot more to say in the same vein Darren, but I'd just be repeating myself. I'd just advise you to try to empathise with other people a bit more if you don't want them to get so shirty with you.
Chin up mate!
Posted by Tim at January 26, 2004 12:09 AM
Indeed. Even bearing in mind my previous comments about BBCWW (which I still stick to, but will give proper context to in this comment): there is simply no *right* to extras on DVDs, even from the BBC. Therefore, getting self-righteous about things that *should* be on there, or about what people see as a waste of money, doesn't really work.
That isn't to say that people shouldn't say what they want on releases, but I just feel that the comments for this article (and other articles) it's strayed too far into assuming we have a right to all this stuff. Which we just don't. Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting what people are saying - if I'm wrong, I have no quarrel with anyone (except to suggest that moderating the attitude in which people express things might stop confusion in the future).
Posted by John Hoare at January 26, 2004 12:13 AM
"Hi Darren. You seem to be getting a little upset here and I'm not sure why."
Say it all again Darrell, go on.
Posted by jesley carrion at January 26, 2004 12:44 AM
Ed and Mongrel are simply being flippant ans nasty, so I'll respond in a suitable manner: I hope you both die very soon.
As for 'Tim', his VERY FUNNY repeatedly getting my name wrong for HILARIOUS COMIC EFFECT HAHA makes him equally a stupid fucking tosser not worth responding to.
That's fucking it.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 26, 2004 12:55 AM
"Ed and Mongrel are simply being flippant ans nasty, so I'll respond in a suitable manner: I hope you both die very soon."
What exactly did you expect to happen if you started spouting such utter bullshit? I can only presume from this reaction that you realise that such an opinion is totally indefensible.
Posted by Ed at January 26, 2004 01:02 AM
"That makes no sense. A novel is a single thing, into which the idea of a wordsearch and a join-the -dots puzzle doesn't fit. A DVD is often a collection of very different things. Sorry Darren, but that's an awful analogy.""
If you consider a DVD to be only the extras, then yes. Most people don't, however. They think of the main thing as being the singular most significant reason for buying the product - in the case of Red Dwarf, those would be the episodes - and the additional stuff comes after. So the book analogy, as long as I'm not stupid, is saying that the book is what you get the book for. Sometimes books are available with additional things though, like translator's notes, prefaces and introductions, and if it's a new edition, that may bring something of its own, like a new perspective. Basically DVD extras should suit the world of the text in the same way - archive material, (including outtakes, ie material from the time) and commentaries, (including documentaries, ie reflections and new perspectives on the old work) both serve to do this. Some extras however, do not do this, and in my opinion as much as in Darrell's, are thus useless. The book analogy is good, because it means I can compare the "food" "lurve" and "bins" featurettes with this: somebody besides the writer and editor providing a new preface consisting of pages 66-67 cut up into triangular segments, rearranged and glued back down, even though the writer is alive and well and living somewhere near the publishing company as a matter of fact. If the cut up rearranged version of pages 66-67 could be considered a new perspective on the old work (how the writer might tackle the material now, or looking at how themes might be reflected in the structure of the text) then it would be fine of course. It would fall into the category of commentary, and thus be of value.
To me, those featurettes, as well as the fan commentary and other things, are precisely the wordsearches and join-the-dots that don't fit the world of the novel. A good analogy in my opinion.
Posted by jesley carrion at January 26, 2004 01:04 AM
By the way, I was serious earlier when I said that some of you should offer yourselves as voluntary "restoration team" members for the Red Dwarf DVDs. After all, nobody seems *that* happy with the work of that lone person, and everyone here put together knows a lot more about what's out there than he does. I'm sure that everyone's heads put together (banged together? - or is that my mother's voice?) will at least show what needs to be found - it may provide some clues as to *where* they might be found, or encourage hunts for stuff that's presumed missing.
Seriously, whatever happens from now on on this thread, no arguments about missed opportunities as Red Dwarf extras should be considered valid without somebody saying "and I'll make sure these things get on the DVDs, goddamit."
Posted by jesley carrion at January 26, 2004 01:13 AM
I do intend to do a revised Future Extras article specifically dealing with V/VI very soon; no doubt people can add their suggestions to the comments for that article, and GNP will get to read it, and perhaps take some ideas from it if they want.
However, I think it's important to remember that production realities get in the way of some things; either rights, or money, gets in the way. It has been said in interviews that there were a few things they wanted to get on the first two DVDs that they just couldn't clear, for instance.
Posted by John Hoare at January 26, 2004 01:19 AM
"However, I think it's important to remember that production realities get in the way of some things; either rights, or money, gets in the way. It has been said in interviews that there were a few things they wanted to get on the first two DVDs that they just couldn't clear, for instance."
Stop saying things like this - it doesn't help. Of course you're bound to get lower than what you aim for, that's why you should aim for the top.
Posted by jesley carrion at January 26, 2004 01:30 AM
Not exactly. I'm trying to stop people being disappointed and therefore start moaning if they expect everything to be 100% perfect, and then it isn't.
Sure, ask for all you want - give GNP plenty of ideas. But expecting it all to come true, and then whinging about it when it doesn't, would just be silly. Having reasonable, realistic expectations is the key here. It doesn't mean we shouldn't all give masses of ideas, and GNP will do all that it can, though - we know they listen to the fans, after all.
Anyway, I'm getting sick of this argument; and I'm sure everyone else is too. Go on everyone, go and comment about the new Rob Grant thing, or something...
Posted by John Hoare at January 26, 2004 01:40 AM
And may I add that nobody should consider themselves permitted to eat unless they've washed their hands.
Posted by Elf Less to Burn at January 26, 2004 10:07 AM
I think you're all wrong. Go to bed with no tea.
Posted by Cappsy at January 26, 2004 12:16 PM
I think everybody's wrong, except me. So I'll just forget you all spoke, OK?
Posted by Ian Symes at January 26, 2004 12:42 PM
I seem to have walked into a war-zone. Is this the longest talkback so far?
I'm not exactly pro-fan commentary but I will change my mind if the following phrase manages to slip through the clutches of the DVD Editor :
"Yeah, I love this series. Much better than that pile of shit that was Series 8"
Posted by Pete Martin at January 26, 2004 12:57 PM
DISCLAIMER: This posting is in no way expressing any opinion, positive or otherwise, on the forthcoming "Fan Commentaries"; it is purely designed to create information on the project by asking a question to those involved so as to try and ascertain some before-hand knowledge on these yet-to-be-recorded extras, with the option of potentially bettering them. This question is asked with no malice or hatred towards any readers of and/or posters to Ganymede & Titan past and present, or indeed to anyone on any Red Dwarf webboard anywhere. Similarly there is no jealousy directed towards any of the competition winners, to whom my most sincerest congratulation and the hope that they throughly enjoy their day in the studio is directed.
Hope that works. You can never be too careful. Anyway, here's my question (an entirely reasonable one that Darrell Jones tried to ask earlier in the discussion yet was surrounded by personal attacks from both sides of the argument and thus ignored) and it is being asked to Cpt-D, Ruth (should she still be reading this far), and any other participants in the Fan Commentary should they be following this board: A lot of people say that the Fan Commentaries will prove to be a waste of time, money and effort on the part of the discs' compilers, and are going to result in a big turn-offable bore; what are you, as the people directly responsible for the commentaries' content, going to say or do to avoid this happening? Thanks.
Posted by Squidy at January 26, 2004 01:04 PM
You know who'd do a really good commentary for Gunmen Of The Apocalypse? Joe Nazzaro.
Posted by Squidy at January 26, 2004 01:58 PM
May I suggest that the one of the winners of the competition break new ground by farting audibly on the commentary? The event would have greater significance if this person happened to be a girl, by the way.
Posted by Elf Less to Burn at January 26, 2004 02:05 PM
I think a lambasting of Series 8 must take place. With farting, of course.
Posted by Cappsy at January 26, 2004 03:11 PM
Ummm... let's make that the axis of evil that is series 7, series 8 and remastered in combo.
Then I'll take back all I've ever said about the fan commentary being a waste of time space and money. And if one of the women will kindly break the silence on the commentary that will gladly be taken as a first, and much appreciated.
Posted by jesley carrion at January 26, 2004 04:17 PM
If Darrell doesn't want to be subjected to "personal attacks" I would suggest he doesn't say such fuckwitted things. It rather undermines an argument about DVD extras to bring in your tediously "controversial" and ill-thought out opinions about the exploration of the solar system.
Posted by N Armstrong MD at January 26, 2004 05:17 PM
My comments about NASA stand. With the obscene amount of money spent on wanking over photos of Mars, huge projects could be undertaken to, for example, organise food, water and medical supplies for Third World countries.
Or is THE WONDER OF SPACE OH YES more important?
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 26, 2004 05:28 PM
Anyway, this has nothing to do with DVD extras. I was merely making a comparison to a bigger example of how misuse of money makes me furious, and am being criticised for it.
As for "tediously "controversial" opinions", you're suggesting that I'm 'just saying it to have an opinion'. You are wrong, so please depart if you're just using this thread as an excuse to unleash a load of playing-to-the-gallery attacks at an easy target.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 26, 2004 05:34 PM
Hopefully, the fan commentaries will be fun to listen to, and offer an interesting perspective on the programme. However, the winners didn't audition for the privledge, and, AFAIK, are not professionally involved in the programme, so if they do disappoint some people, I wouldn't expect them to be blamed for it. It's a very exciting opportunity and I would presume that all the winners are keen to do as best they can for their fellow fans. Good luck to them all.
Whether it's a waste of money or not is irrelevant: what is on the RD DVDs is the business of GNP, meat and poison arguments notwithstanding. We can make recommendations, but we don't have a right to a single thing.
Also, why would GNP employ fans, paid or unpaid? There's all sorts of legal minefields there, and could you imagine the arguments?
Posted by Tanya Jones at January 26, 2004 06:49 PM
Those fans might volunteer themselves, and GNP might say, "yeah okay, fine".
Posted by racetrack and burning swapshops at January 26, 2004 07:02 PM
Are Tanya and Darrell from the same boot by the way? Or is Jones just an insanely common surname?
Posted by General Custer (without horse today, he fucked off) at January 26, 2004 07:04 PM
"Are Tanya and Darrell from the same boot by the way?"
Nope!
"Or is Jones just an insanely common surname?"
Yup!
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 26, 2004 07:55 PM
I wonder if any element of Joe Nazzaro's terrific book *will* be utilised on the DVD? Because if it's not, *that* is where the fan commentary funds should have gone - to organise Robert Llewellyn or Chris Barrie (or Joe Nazzaro, in fact) recording some extracts.
Try and argue with that.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 26, 2004 08:00 PM
Surely a lot of the 'making of' material in that book is going to be discussed already in the inevitable two-hour Series VI documentary?
Posted by Simon at January 26, 2004 08:06 PM
*pops head into thread*
> You are wrong, so please depart if you're just using this thread as an excuse to unleash a load of playing-to-the-gallery attacks at an easy target.
Please don't tell people to "depart" from my site.
*leaves thread again*
Posted by Ian Symes at January 26, 2004 08:39 PM
The current US foreign aid budget is about $16 billion.
The current NASA budget is about $14 billion.
The current US military budget is about $400 billion.
Where's that money being misused again, Sparkles?
Posted by N Armstrong MD at January 26, 2004 08:46 PM
Reading Darrell's comments so far i would say that, YOU have lost the meaning life it's self, the whole reason the competition was for fun, to give the fans a final chance to comment on, what are superb episodes! The cost is comparative to the previous DVD sale if it did well they would have enough to spend on the next one, and so forth, so all this extra cost? Has no bearing in your comments, if you want to save money turn off your computer, stop ranting for the sake of it, you'll save a fortune on your electric bill....
Posted by Drumjay at January 26, 2004 08:53 PM
You can all fuck off.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 26, 2004 08:55 PM
"I wonder if any element of Joe Nazzaro's terrific book *will* be utilised on the DVD? Because if it's not, *that* is where the fan commentary funds should have gone - to organise Robert Llewellyn or Chris Barrie (or Joe Nazzaro, in fact) recording some extracts.
Try and argue with that."
Wouldn't the money be better spent feeding the starving?
Posted by N Armstrong MD at January 26, 2004 08:55 PM
"You can all fuck off."
Wouldn't your time be better spent raising money for charity, Darrell?
Posted by N Armstrong MD at January 26, 2004 08:58 PM
Have you quite finishing creaming yourself with glee at bullying me? Or am I going to have to put up with more or your crap whilst everybody sniggers into their chips?
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 26, 2004 09:07 PM
Darrell it's about time you sat in the bin. We could use it for the aforementioned "bins" featurette, if you truly are so jealous about not being on the fan commentary.
Posted by Grant Naylor Productions (yes, really, so shut up) at January 26, 2004 09:15 PM
Hey - Grant Naylor Productions - YOU'RE the twats that haven't thought of putting an anti-fan commentary on your future DVDs. What about people who loathe your fucking sitcom? Where do WE get heard?
Posted by Listless and Pasty at January 26, 2004 09:20 PM
*breaks down in tears*
Posted by Ian Symes at January 26, 2004 09:24 PM
There, there.
Posted by John Hoare at January 26, 2004 09:26 PM
...*breaks down in tears*
Posted by John Hoare at January 26, 2004 09:26 PM
"Have you quite finishing creaming yourself with glee at bullying me? Or am I going to have to put up with more or your crap whilst everybody sniggers into their chips?"
Stop making this about you. THINK OF THE STARVING CHILDREN.
Posted by N Armstrong MD at January 26, 2004 09:31 PM
*breaks down in tears*
*Calls the AA*
Posted by Drumjay at January 26, 2004 09:57 PM
John, Ian. Anyway to lock this commenting doo-dah? I'm starting to get a headache.
Can't you lot just accept that two groups of people HAVE FUCKING DIFFERENT OPINIONS and just get on with your lifes? Jesus wept.
And can someone tell me what a non Red Dwarf fan is doing sticking his FUCKING NOSE IN?
Thank you.
Posted by Cappsy at January 26, 2004 10:21 PM
"I wonder if any element of Joe Nazzaro's terrific book *will* be utilised on the DVD? Because if it's not, *that* is where the fan commentary funds should have gone - to organise Robert Llewellyn or Chris Barrie (or Joe Nazzaro, in fact) recording some extracts.
Try and argue with that."
I would prefer original material to someone reading out a book I may well already own.
Posted by An epitaph like Walk Away Renee at January 26, 2004 10:27 PM
Why can't you accept that other people want to discuss things that you don't, JIMBO?
Posted by JONATHAN CAPPS IS A MAN OF STEEL at January 26, 2004 10:32 PM
This isn't a discussion. This is fucking world war 3.
Are you going to tell me who you are behind that utterly hilarious pseudonym?
Posted by Cappsy at January 26, 2004 10:35 PM
Lifes?
Posted by JCIAMOS at January 26, 2004 10:36 PM
It was me all along! I was Ed, initially, but the moment took me. I AM IAN SYMES' BESSY MATE. I recorded a song about him and everything!
Posted by Neil Armstrong MD at January 26, 2004 10:37 PM
Yes, I made a gramatical error. I'm very poor at spelling and grammar, I know this fact. Thank you anyway though.
Posted by Cappsy at January 26, 2004 10:40 PM
> I AM IAN SYMES' BESSY MATE.
That's slander, that is.
Posted by Ian Symes at January 26, 2004 10:41 PM
Anyone for camp fire song?
KUM-BAY-AH ME DWARF KUM-BAY-AH
Posted by Cappsy at January 26, 2004 10:45 PM
So, in conclusion...
[Shakes head and walks away]
Posted by Pete Martin at January 26, 2004 10:45 PM
Go on then, shake your head and walk out!
Oh....you already have done. Carry on then.
Posted by Cappsy at January 26, 2004 10:48 PM
Let me inform you that this thread is not yet complete.
Posted by Dressed to Spill at January 26, 2004 11:38 PM
I sit here laughing as I write this..... 'cos your comments towards the end (well up to this message) have made me chuckle.
Thank you, I will sleep easy now. :)
Posted by Paul (TRD) at January 27, 2004 12:16 AM
I sit here laughing as I write this..... 'cos your comments towards the end (well up to this message) have made me chuckle.
Thank you, I will sleep easy now. :)
Posted by Paul (TRD) at January 27, 2004 12:16 AM
ok, dunno why that was shown twice, but hey.. nevermind. It's not my web space Im using up :)
Posted by Paul (TRD) at January 27, 2004 12:17 AM
Does TRD stand for The Red Dwarf or The Real Darrell (which by the way is a real fucking weird of a spelling for Darren)? Because if it stands for the latter you have a real cheek for coming onto here and congratulating yourself like that. You don't see me entering under a vaguely disguised varient of my former self and saying "all you lot, especially me, making myself laugh" and skipping away again, do you, no. And you tell me why not. I'll tell you why not. Because I don't have a real cheek for coming onto here and congratulating myself like that, that's why.
Anyway, with that cleared up, I'm off to iron and the such, as it's late and I still have a report to write before bed.
Posted by jesley carrion at January 27, 2004 12:36 AM
AND I didn't sleep last night.
Posted by jesley carrion at January 27, 2004 12:37 AM
It stands for Total Red Dwarf. And it's not Darrell it's Paul.
Posted by Cappsy at January 27, 2004 08:31 AM
I thought it maybe meant "Paul (The Real Darrell)" as though it were some kind of contest. And actually I'm going to continue believing that now, because it's only Tuesday.
Posted by jesley carrion at January 27, 2004 10:25 AM
Hi jesley
No, my name is Paul, and TRD does indeed mean TOTAL RED DWARF (the name of my site - click the link). I was just chuckling as this thread is getting so huge, and I found the last few comments funny too.
I've never really commented much on G&T before, but this article has had some comments on it that have made interesting reading, and so thought I'd comment :)
Please 'never' refer to me as Darrell. I love Red Dwarf and would never slag it off.
Chhers
Paul
Posted by Paul (TRD) at January 27, 2004 11:49 AM
To be fair, I love Red Dwarf and have no qualms about slagging it off. The only things I object to are people making assumptions about the reasons behind what they see as weaknesses, and people assuming that something will be shit before they see it.
I too have reservations about the commentary track, but I know two of the eight people who have been selected to be clever chaps and generally knowledgable about the show. If the others, who I've not heard of before, are of Cpt-D and Ruth's standard, it can't be bad.
Oh, and I also disapprove of people using different pseudonyms on the same thread. I've tolerated it before, but one person is purporting to be four different people on this thread, which is not on.
Posted by Ian Symes at January 27, 2004 11:54 AM
I was actually half convinced that LOADS of people posted here!
Only joking, you know I am, yes you do :P
It is stupid because half-witted people like me can't work out who is who.
If you'll excuse me. Anyone got any tips on military strategy theory applied in business whilst I'm here?
Posted by Joey at January 27, 2004 12:21 PM
Why "Total Red Dwarf" as opposed to the more grammatically correct "Totally Red Dwarflike" or "Utter Red Dwarfness", may I ask?
Posted by Shrine Unto Them and Yelp Please at January 27, 2004 01:38 PM
Cos that's what I wanted to call my site many years ago. Check the 'Site Details' page - (link:bottom left on my site, for details of my site's update history.
Regards
Paul
Posted by Paul (TRD) at January 27, 2004 02:28 PM
"They could at least have gone along the road with hair dryers or something. For me it just took the edge off the entire series."
This person is, hopefully, being ironic.
Posted by The Kay Sisters They're Here at January 27, 2004 03:44 PM
Is this still going? Fucking hell.
I HOPE THERES A FAN COMMENTARY ON EVERY DVD OF EVERYTHING EVER
I also hope every single RD dvd special feature is replaced with a commentary by a variety of woodland creatures, just so D.A.R.Y.L explodes.
Posted by Mongrel at January 27, 2004 04:44 PM
Yes, yes, that's quite enough of that.
Posted by Cappsy at January 27, 2004 06:32 PM
"Jesus wept"
Yeah, so would you if you had 6 inch nails hammered through your wrists and ankles... ;)
Anyway, what's the argument about? You should all know that "Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em" is the world's finest sitcom, and what extras does THAT get, eh? :D
Posted by Sparky at January 27, 2004 06:34 PM
The reason "Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em" doesn't have any extras is that there's only so far you can push the myth of mothers not 'aving 'em. I know they don't say "All Mothers", but in the outtakes for example, there are several examples of the specific mothers mentioned in the series quite clearly 'aving 'em. Personally I think they should admit that the show is fiction and put the extras on, but you know what the BBC are like, eh? They would have the mothers doing the introductions in character, then show the outtakes, and then they'd be in a right pickle. Pam or whatever she's called would turn to Amble and say, "'Ang on, wasn't you 'Aving 'Em in that shot?" and Amble (not wanting to 'ave 'em by contradicting her) would have to say "yes", and then after a few more of those the programme would be fucked. Leave well alone, that's what I say. Don't touch what you don't understand.
Posted by jesley carrion at January 27, 2004 06:48 PM
There's a really nice contemporaneous documentary about Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em called "To Be Perfectly Frank" (TX :11th April 1977, Easter Monday according to Lewishon) which features on-set making of footage, rushes extracts (including non-amusing errors made by the cast) and Michael Crawford enthusiastically talking about the series backstage as he prepares to play the title role in Barnum. One of the best and most informative documentaries on a TV comedy show I've ever seen. Repeated once as part of some Alexei Sayle-hosted night of visual comedy on BBC2 on the 19th of June 1999, and elements recently turned up in the 50 Greatest Sitcoms programme the other week. So, yeah, the Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em DVDs should have some extras, one of which would be a pretty great one at that, and I don't see why it's any less deserving of extras than Red Dwarf simply because it hasn't got spaceships and robots in it. Its fanbase is just as large, if not larger, and there's roughly the same number of good episodes. Still, I suppose we should be thankful BBCWW wasn't supervising the SMDAE releases - they'd leave off the Christmas specials and put on a compilation of Frank falling under a bus to the tune of "He's a Rebel" by Alisha's Attic, plus the birth of baby Jessica field-removed and dubbed into smegging Hindi.
That appearance on Noel's House Party, that should be on there. Michael Crawford attempts to sing a serious song, but the set collapses and a million Frank Spencer-a-likes rush onto the stage and start gurning. Marvellous.
Posted by Squidy at January 28, 2004 02:04 PM
Why are people constantly making refernces to the musical featurettes as if they are done on ALL BBCWW releases? I have seen at least 4 different people make the same 'hillarious' reference to them.
Posted by Cappsy at January 28, 2004 03:52 PM
It's because the featurettes are a useful stick to beat the RD DVDs with. I've never even bothered to watch them, to be honest.
Also, the featurettes were obviously a GNP idea - specifically Andrew Ellard's. Nothing to do with BBC Worldwide at all, other than their endorsemant, presumably. The usual conflation of issues.
I'd also point out again that one Dr Who DVD has an episode dubbed into Arabic. I don't think the idea of watching an episode dubbed into a foreign language is intrinsically without interest (actors' voices and change in inflection are worthwhile in their way).
Posted by Simon at January 28, 2004 04:37 PM
"Why are people constantly making refernces to the musical featurettes as if they are done on ALL BBCWW releases? I have seen at least 4 different people make the same 'hillarious' reference to them."
Just trying to point out how ludicrous the idea is. A Stunt Musical Featurette for Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em is no more a ridiculous and pointless idea than a Love Musical Featurette on a Dwarf disc. If people want to watch Frank Spencer's greatest stunts they'll watch an actual episode. Similarly, if the purchasers of Red Dwarf series four want to see a compilation of the series' funniest romantic moments, then they should put on disc one and skip to Camille. And if it's 'new' material Dwarf fans are after, I'm sure they'd rather it was something unseen and contemporaneous, such as deleted scenes or elsewhere-made in-character appearances, rather than unseen and newly-created, such as the Musical Featurettes or A Life In Lame.
And "constantly" making references? Four in 125 messages doesn't sound very 'constant'; in fact it's pretty restrained considering.
"I'd also point out again that one Dr Who DVD has an episode dubbed into Arabic. I don't think the idea of watching an episode dubbed into a foreign language is intrinsically without interest (actors' voices and change in inflection are worthwhile in their way). "
Yes, I saw your post on this earlier. Although I'm not a big fan of foreign language features on DVDs, an Arabian track on a Doctor Who DVD is fine as not only is this slightly interesting to those who care about such things (although I doubt even the most fanatic Whovian listened to more than a few of the opening minutes) Doctor Who discs have so much other supplementary material that the slightly rubbish extras are totally ignorable. New Nev Fountain sketches about Doctor Who characters are regrettable (in fact ANY new Nev Fountain sketches are regrettable, frankly) but the effort the DWRT have obviously put in so much of elsewhere in securing plenty of archive material for inclusion somehow makes up for it. The Simpsons discs are the same; lots of uninvolving foreign language clips on each but lots of audio out-takes and commentaries also so hip-hooray. With Dwarf I feel that the Japanese episode and Musical Featurettes are taking away resources and discspace from potentially better extras that would appeal to more fans across the board, such as... oh, you know.
Posted by Squidy at January 28, 2004 06:22 PM
I fail to see the difference, to be honest. Much more effort has gone into RD DVDs than The Simpsons. RD too has out-takes and commentaries, plus a hell of a lot more. And surely the foreign language episode and new sketches on the Doctor Who DVDs also take away resources that could be used on potentially better extras as well?
Posted by Ian Symes at January 28, 2004 06:31 PM
The sketches on the Doctor Who DVDs are just little Easter Egg things produced externally by fans with non-existent budgets and for a bit of a giggle, by the way (and none of them are written by Nev Fountain!). One of them in particular ('Oh Mummy' on the Pyramids of Mars disc) is *really* great (you see, even the throwaway jokey stuff on the DW discs is pleasant!). They've nearly all been road-tested at conventions before release as well to see whether they're popular / of worth or not (I witnessed the premieres of 'Making Cocoa' and 'Oh Mummy!', the fantastic reception of the latter in particular saw it upgraded from an Easter Egg to an advertised feature). 'A Life in Lame' seems like it's cost quite a bit to make, and is being advertised as one of the premiere features of the disc. And that *hasn't* been shown to a test audience!
The foreign language episode was only included on 'The Aztecs' because the dubbed DW episodes are quite well-known but rarely seen. They feature alternate incidental music and sound effects too, so that was a pretty good reason for including it on the Aztecs release I'd say. Plus, any contemporaneous archive related to the sixties stories is worth digitising as there's so little of it. The Japanese 'The End' isn't rare, archival or contemporaneous in any form, rendering it pretty redundant. Ironically, I would have considered the non-Japanese 'The End: Remastered' a perfectly valid extra!
Just a bit of context to chew over, there. I'm trying to keep this to the civilised discussion it should be. I'm not getting worked up over everything, just adding to what's largely an interesting debate about quality of extras / lost potential etc. Honest.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 28, 2004 06:55 PM
I agree that some refernce should have been made to the Remastered stuff. HOwever, I get the idea that GNP are VERY tetchy about the whole remastered thing. i;ve only heard Andrew make referene to it once and it was along the lines of:
"We only really did it for America but had to release it over here to stop the fans moaning"
The remastering issue can still be covered on Series VII though.
Quite frankly, I'm still wetting my pants over the sheer potential that Series V has of being the best DVD in the set.
Posted by Cappsy at January 28, 2004 07:21 PM
Yeah, series 5 should be a good one.
Though so should 6, 7 and 8, as there's loads of behind-the-scenes stuff available for those. Might balance out the shite a bit better.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 28, 2004 07:32 PM
That article detailing all the stuff that could and should be on subsequent DVDs is coming soon, folks.
Posted by Ian Symes at January 28, 2004 09:20 PM
Well i have something coming soon that has a bit of conjecture regarding a certain possible Series V extra.
Posted by Cappsy at January 28, 2004 09:46 PM
Oh and yes, Darrell, hopefully VII and VII should have plenty of good stuff to help balance out the quality. The commentaries may even render the episodes watchable.
Posted by Cappsy at January 28, 2004 09:47 PM
bah! should visit here more often, then i wouldn't have to spend yrs reading all the comments on each article.
was it Darrell that was whinging about whats the point of the fan commentries? well my message to him is stop whinging :P
most ppl on here as it has been mentioned already countless of times blah blah blah fans of the show will give their right arm and left leg for this oportunity.
well thats my opionion, and i shall crawl back down my rabbit hole for a little while :)
Posted by klariza at January 29, 2004 10:41 PM
"most ppl on here as it has been mentioned already countless of times blah blah blah fans of the show will give their right arm and left leg for this oportunity."
I doubt they're that enthused. They might listen to them a couple of times, but I doubt it'll be the main reason for buying the DVD.
Posted by jesley carrion at January 30, 2004 02:01 PM
I agree with all of the above.
Posted by Francis Slipper at February 10, 2004 01:29 PM
Yeah.
Posted by c at March 24, 2004 03:17 PM
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