Some Kind Of Squid
Hey, remember our You Jammy Goits article? Course you do, it was only published last week. Anyway, it was an article that responded to some of the criticism of the DVDs; the basic message being "appreciate what you've got, because, basically, they're fantastic". Well, one reader took exception to this, and posted a lengthy comment in the appropriate thread. So that it doesn't eventually get lost, we've HTML-ised Squidy's post, which is entitled If You're Going To Talk Garbage, Expect Pain.
But, we wouldn't let it lie there. We've retaliated with another lengthy article, The Thing You Should Bring Is Silence, addressing the points that Squidy raised. I've tried to keep the bitching to a minimum, but, you know. So, what now? Well, that remains to be seen.
Comments
I now am stuck between siding with both parties, and the whole thing is getting a bit unpleasant.
Oh, a correction - there are not 169 members of the Doctor Who Restoration Team. There are 7 of them. I don't know where 169 came from.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 21, 2004 10:44 PM
It was a paraphrased line from the popular sit-com Red Dwarf.
Posted by Ian Symes at January 21, 2004 10:49 PM
I did notice the 169/RD thing, but it wasn't instantly apparent. It does sort-of suggest that there are 169 members of the RT, though.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 21, 2004 11:50 PM
It doesn't really detract from the point, though: not only are 7 heads better than one, but it would also be a lot more helpful if fans who know about obscure appearances actually told GNP, instead of keeping the information to themselves and then crowing about it.
Also, Squidy started with the unpleasant comments, Darrell, so any conflicts of loyalty are your business. The point of Ian's article was to say that there is a basic area of agreement, but Squidy's attitude makes it a lot harder to find common ground.
To coin a 'Joe4SOTCAA' phrase: "So who's the cunt?".
Posted by Tanya Jones at January 22, 2004 07:24 AM
I do find myself agreeing with Squiddy. I�m still unsure as to why I would want a glass to be filled with Leopard larger though. I�m tee-total.
True, things could have been done better in certain respects, but I think that the majority of improvements that could have been made from the first two series have been made. You want interesting footage? Well the Ross, McGinley (who you hate so much) has been working to get Mike Tuckers footage from the special effects department onto Series V. You question this mans loyalty but he�s often on the WebBoard talking to fans and collecting information and feedback.
The fan commentary idea is a brilliant one. You say it will rubbish but yet I wager you read most of the opinions written on this site. If the election process goes well you will have 8 individuals like John, Ian and even myself who have the capacity to talk for hours and hours without even thinking about using the word smeg. From what I have gathered form the fellow posters on this comments system such as Tanya, Darrell, Joey (and the rest of you, sorry if your names have slipped my mind) would all be able to make a commentary that would be infinitely more interesting than anything the cast can come up with.
I agree with some of your comments On Ellard though. I�m unsure as to his ability to write Dwarf material as I don�t think much to the Talkie Toaster stuff. Only time will tell on that matter, though.
Do I really come across as an alcoholic then? Or was that just you talking shit, Sqiddy?
Posted by Cappsy at January 22, 2004 12:24 PM
Hello all,
Have just read the "Silence" article and it is everything I had hoped for in a reply: well-argued, well-reasoned, points addressed correctly, errors corrected... I don't agree with it all, of course, but I do agree with some of it and shall write a response to each and every one of your points when I get a moment, which I shall either post here or email direct to Ian. But first I'd like to pick up on some points made here in this thread.
Firstly, I'd like to believe is no "conflict of loyalty", with people having no need to fall into either a G&T camp or a Squidy camp, red hats or blue hats. This was never my intention nor do I hope it was Ian's. We seem to have the same ideas about the Dwarf DVDs, i.e. that they are great discs with many faults, it just seemed to me to be a tad one-sided to have a large article praising the disc's contents without having one pointing out the disc's omissions (Darrell's article steers towards problems technical rather than material) so that's what I set out to do. I don't think that posting this on a RD site is needlessly argumentative or deliberately provocative or anything, and certainly no more so than the piece already up on G&T with Ian and Moss debating Series VIII, just approaching what has already been written from a different, and mainly unoffered, view.
I didn't intentionally include any "unpleasant comments" addressed towards anyone here and apologise if any were taken that way. As I've expressed before I am deeply impressed by this site and the passion and knowledge of both its writers and its contributors so apologies if I've come across as "the cunt" in this scenario. I really didn't mean to encourage anything but good debate, and certainly not a bitter rivalry twixt man and messageboard. I mean, why would I do that anyway, go on a Red Dwarf fansite and write "RED DWARD IS A BIT RUBBISH AND SO ARE YOU" on it? I'd be sure to lose. Better to atttempt a genuine discussion using (hopefully) well-argued points and opinions which, after reading Ian's considered response, is what I believe is happening at the moment.
Cappsy: No, you are not an alcoholic, I was just making a poor joke about strangely inserted Red Dwarf references. I'll comment more on your notes about Fan Commentaries in my reply to the article.
All the best to the Dwarfers,
Squidy.
Posted by Squidy at January 22, 2004 02:01 PM
Hmm, I feel I must correct part of my post:
"I wager you read most of the comments on this site. And listening to the commentary would be no different than reading an article. So long as the right people are chosen."
There, that makes more sense.
Posted by Cappsy at January 22, 2004 03:24 PM
My Dissagreements:
1. The Feturettes Kick Ass!!
2: Backwards-Forwards is watchable
3: Mostly everything else the Squid said!
Posted by MJN SEIFER at January 22, 2004 03:26 PM
With all due respect, as I see it, The DVD's have to appeal to as wide an audience as possible.some of the criticisms levelled at the Dwarf ones is boardering on 'Anorak' status.I suppose as 'hardcore' fans, some of the stuff you mention would be nice, But for the vast majority of the average and new fans, the extras provided are more than adequate...
I still maintain, we as fans are extremely lucky to have the team we have, working behind the scenes for us. Many 'Comedy' fans would give their right arm to have half the stuff we have, Red Dwarf wise, full stop.
Personal insults and questioning those involved in regards to knowledge and commitment is totally uncalled for, and quite frankly wrong.
Maybe one day, a definitive 'Red Dwarf' will come out including all the stuff you crave, but I for one, am happy with our lot [so far]
Posted by Cpt-D at January 22, 2004 03:38 PM
Commentaries, deleted scenes, smeg-ups, documentaries, music cues to an extent.
All the other extras are crap.
I think Grant Naylor missed a trick by putting the Smeg Ups onto each series. Not only did they miss a few out, but they also missed the chance to fleece us an extra �14.99 for a "Smeg Ups/Smeg Outs DVD. Those Kryten links...they were funny.
Posted by Pete Martin at January 22, 2004 09:48 PM
"Those Kryten links...they were funny."
You are joking right? Not being rude if you're not but I'm assuming you are.
Posted by Lavish Menus, say "ooh!" (and they do) at January 22, 2004 10:22 PM
I thought the Kryten links were excellent. Other cock-up compilation tapes rarely bother linking them in that way - they just use inter-titles.
Because it's Kryten and not Rob Llew it was like a special insight into Kryten's 'life' onboard the ship.
Posted by Blake at January 22, 2004 10:28 PM
The links are the epitomy of awfulness - FACT.
Why they couldn't have just released one tape anyway with all the series 1-6 out-takes on is a mystery. Smeg Outs has more links than actual out-take footage, you know.
Posted by Darrell Jones at January 22, 2004 10:32 PM
Oddly enough, I disliked the links when I first got the videos, and wondered why they bothered with them - but when I re-watched them again recently, I quite enjoyed some of them. "NOT LONG ENOUGH!" (Some of them are quite poor, though.)
Posted by John Hoare at January 22, 2004 10:57 PM
I'm not bloody reading all that. I'm on Ian's side.
Posted by Joey at January 23, 2004 10:01 AM
I hope you could be bothered to read my comment. You got a compliment.
Posted by Cappsy at January 23, 2004 11:11 AM
I think Squidy's overall point is that it's a wood-for-the-trees situation: some people take this 'I'm happy with my lot, mustn't complain, we must be realistic' approach, but he's arguing that we need to think in terms of changing attitudes. It goes far beyond Red Dwarf. Remember, many DVD producers trot out the the 'too much diskspace/too costly/too esoteric' arguments to cover up their own inadequacies as researchers - whoever put the Young Ones disc together would almost certainly claim these were the reasons for their rubbishness. It's all about have a 'Hang on - if they can do x, why can't they do y?' attitude.
(If I was a twat, I would use the phrase 'Think outside the box' here. I'll settle for 'Aim for the stars and you might get the moon, aim for the moon and you get nowhere' instead. Hmm.)
Also, I think his point about the Loose Ends appearance was not that nobody knew what it was, but that nobody *asked* what it was. Nobody said 'So what's significant about that then, Squidders?', they just said 'Well we have to be realistic' as usual.
Posted by New York Stories at January 23, 2004 09:49 PM
Why did my witty comment get deleted?
I was slagging myself off?
Posted by Joey at January 24, 2004 12:53 PM
I haven't deleted anything, dear.
Posted by Ian Symes at January 24, 2004 08:38 PM
With regard to this:
"Would that The Talons Of Weng-Chiang omitted the studio reel for the first installment of the story dubbed into Japanese and a compilation of the Doctor fighting aliens to the tune of 'I Lost My Heart To A Starship Trooper' there would be sackings aplenty over at the DW Restoration Team."
There is actually an option on one Dr Who DVD (can't remember which) to watch an episode with an Arabic soundtrack. I'm sure you could defend it from a completist perspective along the lines that it's interesting to hear an interpretation of the script in a foreign language, different actors' voices, and their enunciation of the lines, etc. Not that I would bother to sit through it, to be honest.
Posted by Simon at January 25, 2004 03:24 AM
"To coin a 'Joe4SOTCAA' phrase: "So who's the cunt?"."
Bless you.
Posted by Joe4SOTCAA at January 27, 2004 11:28 PM
Chanced upon the site looking for information regarding why Grant and Naylor don't work together any more, read this and the associated rants and thought it was just worth pointing out that more extras can be squeezed onto a DVD by dropping the bitrate of those extras. Which roughly translates to cutting them at VHS quality rather than DVD quality. I'd imagine this would be good enough for anorak footage.
DJ
Posted by DJGrenola at March 18, 2004 10:25 AM
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